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View Full Version : Standard 16v and TBs back to back


sandy309
16-04-2008, 07:22 AM
I finally got to do something recently that I've wanted to do for a long time, a back to back with and without a good TB set up on a 106 GTi.
Nicks car started out with a standard engine, fitted with a Supersprint exhaust manifold and green filter cold air induction kit. This is a popular set up which clearly extracts very good results without further mods. The car has been rolling road tested at Powerstation before, and was indicated to give 152bhp at the flywheel, a bit optimistic, but clearly working well.
When Nick arrived with the car, we immediately warmed it up and put it in the rollers to take a set of "before" figures so we could see after exactly where the figures were changing. The conditions were fairly cool, so ideal for good readings! We test power at static rpm sites using a Sun RAM XII rolling road with DRO, it's calibrated regularly with a torque arm to ensure consistent and repeatable figures.
The figures we got were pretty good, the best "standard" 106 GTi we've seen yet, it had a very strong torque peak (approximately 125lbft flywheel at 5500rpm) and peak power was 118bhp at the wheels (approximately 142bhp flywheel at 6500rpm). I clearly had my work cutout to beat that!
I'd already prepared the loom work to convert to the DTA S40 ECU, so removing the standard inlet and fitting the new inlet (my DCOE "DTH" style design) and the 42mm Jenvey TH bodies was a pretty straight forward task after cutting the scuttle. Once the car was back up and running I did some road miles to hone down the fueling map; I prefer to trim the fuel mapping out in the real world, because the engine is seeing the airflow and temps it will really see, rather than the slightly artificial environment of the rollers. After that it was down to the rollers to optimise the ignition map for best power and check the results.
I fitted 40mm trumpets initially, to allow room for a proper filter to be fitted, it's the practical maximum. The initial mid range results weren't really climbing clear of the standard inlet to though and it wasn't pulling clear of the standard results until 5200rpm, after that it peaked at 128bhp at the wheels (bear in mind that after mapping the conditions were much hotter than the initial standard engine test), which was 10bhp up on the original set up.
I wasn't convinced at this stage that it was all working as it should and set about finding some other trumpets to try, to see if the mid range could be improved. Stuart Hatch down the road had some 60mm trumpets that would fit and kindly dropped them over on his lunch break (cheers Stuart!!). We starting mapping the changes and the difference in mid range was incredible, at 4000rpm it was 15bhp up (18%) up on the 40mm trumpets and kept on making more power all the way to the limiter! The final results being 131bhp at the wheels (approx 158bhp flywheel) and approx 133lbft at 6000rpm, holding over 85% peak torque from 3500-7000rpm.
Here are my plots of the results:
Wheels figures:
http://www.goodhand.co.uk/sandy/files/NickCharlesWheelsBHP.JPG

Flywheel final figures:
http://www.goodhand.co.uk/sandy/files/NickCharlesFlyEstimated.JPG

The small difference in trumpet shape and/or tract length made an huge difference to the end results and to me insists the importance of tuning TB set ups to the engine, rather than just bolting on what you have and judging it as a success or failure.

None of this really illustrates how the car feels or sounds on the move either, which is pretty pleasing too!

80WYA
16-04-2008, 08:34 AM
thats some pleasing results! so with cams what figures you reckon youd'e be lookin at ?

sandy309
16-04-2008, 08:36 AM
We'll be finding out soon!

titchemus
16-04-2008, 09:11 AM
that looks impressive sandy. how much realisticaly am i looking at for a tb set up on a standard vts lump? including labour etc.
keep this thread going i want to see what differences cams make ;) What cams is he going for?(708's)

tree
16-04-2008, 10:44 AM
Excellent work! very interestng read!

stugee
16-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Superb *starts aquiring the parts bit by bit...*

Eeyore
16-04-2008, 12:12 PM
Rough costs:

ECU ~£600
Custom engine loom ~£350
Mapping ~£350
Fitting ~£3-400
Bodies ~£500
Inlet ~£200
Supersprint Exh manifold ~£280
Total ~£2600

The point of this is not the cost, but the results. I wanted to show exactly how much improvement the TBs would make without any internal mods. The costs have to be considered in the longer term, the ECU or TBs hardly depreciate, the cost of trimming the map for future mods will be around £150-200 a time, compared to the £500 per visit with a re-mapped standard ECU, you have a huge choice of people to set it up or tweak it or you can even access the ECU yourself if you are so inclined.

peter86
16-04-2008, 12:23 PM
interesting results, will be good to see what variations in power youl recieve with different cams!;):D

hank_marvinson
16-04-2008, 12:25 PM
:D sandy, you got any pics of your dth style setup?

sandy309
16-04-2008, 07:59 PM
There are some better pics about of Andy Monkman's car with it, but here's Nick's:

http://www.goodhand.co.uk/sandy/files/NC05.JPG

http://www.goodhand.co.uk/sandy/files/NC06.JPG

Nick c
16-04-2008, 08:53 PM
I am very happy with the results from this, especially with the 60mm trumpets :)
As Sandy said the power increase is great but also the noise is amazing!! Not driven it much yet and the first test in anger will be at Combe on sat, cant wait!!
Here are some more pics:-

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/Nick_206_180/106%20GTI/Bodies1.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/Nick_206_180/106%20GTI/Bodies2.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/Nick_206_180/106%20GTI/Bodies3.jpg

Nick

Lewis
16-04-2008, 08:59 PM
looks mint dude - get some vids of it in action too! Get that scuttle chopped out and get a LHD wiper motor in there ;)

Nick c
16-04-2008, 09:13 PM
Scuttle has been cut to max allowed in regs, did think of changing wiper but got my cut off switch wiring and pull cables running through there.
Will have the camera in car at combe - just got to work out how to get it on the net, lol

Nick

sandy309
17-04-2008, 05:23 AM
Cheers for the pics Nick!

I've just dug out the results from Andy's when I mapped it. We didn't know what the cams he had were, apart from they were 11mm lift. The rest of his spec was modified 16v pistons (raised CR), PTS rods, double valve springs, hydraulic lifters, 4-2-1 exhaust (BTB I think?), JP4 head (lightly ports possibly), my DCOE DTH style inlet, 45mm bodies IIRC, 40mm trumpets, cut scuttle. You get the idea.

http://www.goodhand.co.uk/sandy/files/NickCharlesFlyEstimated&AndyM.JPG

kpsig
17-04-2008, 06:27 AM
Well, those figures could be justified by the lean mixture with the 60mm trumpets (you have given no clue for lamda ratios).
About throttle response, how was it with 60mm??
What were the tempratures of exhaust gases?

sandy309
17-04-2008, 06:37 AM
Fuelling was corrected on both, the throttle response (especially lower down) was marginally better on the 60mm trumpets, it ran slightly cleaner generally. I only observe EGT to diagnose problems, not for general mapping.

Lewis
17-04-2008, 12:14 PM
Ah I see so it would fail regs if you cut it anymore yes? Still, moving the wiper would help! Re route the other bits n pieces mate! :D
Sandy the inlet manifold is a work of art mate :)

80WYA
17-04-2008, 03:57 PM
Scuttle has been cut to max allowed in regs, did think of changing wiper but got my cut off switch wiring and pull cables running through there.
Will have the camera in car at combe - just got to work out how to get it on the net, lol

Nick

you could move the pulls...

just an idea... did this on my 205 as ive seen so many people snap the top's off the pulls when opening the bonnet...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/kobra666/DSC00428.jpg

and kiwi's rallye maxi:
http://i31.tinypic.com/t50e80.jpg

kpsig
17-04-2008, 05:02 PM
Fuelling was corrected on both, the throttle response (especially lower down) was marginally better on the 60mm trumpets, it ran slightly cleaner generally. I only observe EGT to diagnose problems, not for general mapping.

How do you comment on the fact that 60mm is significantly higher than the figures proposed in general by weber, etc? :confused: (I suppose length available!)
If you could also disclose, how many millimeters of you total inlet tract your runners are 60mm?
If you had enough length for 40mm diameter runners (it think that in 16V engine bay the length is not properly "tuned" with the diameter of 40mm, would they be prefferable?
Sorry for the many questions but I am really fascinated by the results!

sandy309
17-04-2008, 06:13 PM
I think we may have a misunderstanding?

The 40mm and 60mm I mention refers to the Length, not the diameter. The diameter in both cases was 45mm.

TB-George
17-04-2008, 09:27 PM
Did you not try 90mm or similar as well Sandy?

Fuzz
17-04-2008, 10:22 PM
Interesting :D

sandy309
18-04-2008, 06:04 AM
Did you not try 90mm or similar as well Sandy?

No, there wouldn't be room without cutting the scuttle deeper, which wasn't an option. Really this needs to be considered in terms of overall length, the inlet port is about 85mm to the valve, so for example:
Type---Port---Manifold---Body---Trumpet---Total
Sandy manifold/TH bodies/40mm trumpets---85mm, 120mm, 91mm, 40mm, Total= 336mm
Sandy manifold/TH bodies/60mm trumpets---85mm, 120mm, 91mm, 60mm, Total= 356mm
Jenvey SF manifold/SF bodies/90mm trumpets---85mm, 90mm, 66mm, 90mm, Total= 331mm
Chadil manifold/TH bodies/40mm trumpets---85mm, 75mm, 91mm, 40mm, Total= 291mm

I don't have the length of the KMS DTH bodies to compare.
The overall tract shape needs to be considered too, in terms of sectional changes, but I don't want to divulge precise details of this publicly.

RichE
18-04-2008, 06:56 AM
I imagine the second line in Sandy's table should read: "Sandy manifold/TH bodies/60mm trumpets"

Obviously you haven't had the first coffee of the morning yet mate :eek:

TB-George
18-04-2008, 07:42 AM
Very true Sandy, I forgot how long your inlet manifold was, and that the SF's are shorter as well. I'll measure the KMS ones for you as soon as I can, unless someone else has a set they can measure?

Another point Sandy; It would be nice to see how much power, if any, was gained from just fitting the standalone ecu to the standard engine.

kpsig
18-04-2008, 10:07 AM
I think we may have a misunderstanding?

The 40mm and 60mm I mention refers to the Length, not the diameter. The diameter in both cases was 45mm.

Ooooopppsss.... :o
Sorry for my Greek understanding of English

sandy309
18-04-2008, 08:41 PM
Thanks George. Well, looking at the fuelling and delivery of the standard (ish) GTi engine, I doubt there would really be any noticeable gains from a standalone, hard to say, but I've switched cars to standalone before and the improvements are invariably at part throttle, not WOT (wide open throttle).

Now worries kpsig, I can't imagine posting on a forum in another language, hats off to you!

TB-George
19-04-2008, 08:08 AM
That makes it even more impressive Sandy. I remember when TMS did 3 conversions on standard engines. All of them were removed in the end. They produced my peak power, but lost midrange. The induction was far too short though. I'm really glad the tb conversion worked tbh.

RcH
01-05-2008, 10:00 PM
Just dragging up an old thread here to save me starting a new one and its fairly relevant :rolleyes:
Im really interested in this setup for my road car 106 GTi, should make the car alot easier to drive with the big increase in low down torque and also be a fair bit faster. What im abit worried about is that ive heard its pretty damn impossible to map an aftermarket ecu to be able to start as well as the standard ecu when cold etc. Im worried that with it being a road car it may have trouble starting in cold temps? Is there that much of a problem sandy? Thanks.

Fuzz
01-05-2008, 10:01 PM
It's usually the idle that's the problem not the actual starting..

semtex
01-05-2008, 10:02 PM
its not that bad really

sandy309
02-05-2008, 04:45 AM
Hopefully Nick that owns the car will tell you what he thinks. When I visited him the other day, he started the car up and left it idling from cold while we chatted.
There's alot of factors involved in getting it to run that well, but get those factors right and it will.

Nick c
02-05-2008, 07:17 AM
Hi there.
Yep the car starts fine with a bit of throttle and only needs a small amount of revving before it idles fine on its own. Mine works perfectly fine and very happy with it :)

Nick

RcH
02-05-2008, 03:59 PM
Ok guys thanks!