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-   -   Anyone know the ratios and fd's for the MA box range?? (http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showthread.php?t=23534)

Rallye Rich 09-11-2005 10:01 PM

Anyone know the ratios and fd's for the MA box range??
 
Been having a look for the ratios and fd's but cant find it. I know mark has the page on here with the xsi's and rallyes and 16v's. BUT, i cant find any low millage versions of those, yet 1.4 and 1.6 box's from c3's with like 10k are aplenty, and also some 1.1 saxo/106 boxes about. need to find some info on these tho??? anybody able to help??

cheers.

Gregg 09-11-2005 10:10 PM

The Peugeot parts CD has the final drives, gear ratios and codes on it. Might be worth finding a Citroen to broaden your search.

Are you after a box with similar fd to the S1 XSi and Rallye?

Rallye Rich 09-11-2005 10:16 PM

ah cool, my mate at work has the peugeot parts cd's, ill check um out.

yeah i would like to get a low millage mint box (with the std 'performance' variant of ratios) but swap the FD for the 1.4xsi or 1.3 rallye. no need for me to do a theoretical 158!!
i suppose i could just get either of those box's and have them rebuilt, but i hear often rebuilt box's just dont every last the same.???? not sure tho myself as no direct exp with a rebuild?

Gregg 09-11-2005 10:22 PM

Just had a quick look at the final drives, there's a few 206's that use the 14x60 and 13x59 fd, 306's with 14x60 and even a 1.0 106 with ultra short 13x64. Not sure on gear ratios yet though.

Gregg 09-11-2005 10:31 PM

Quick update, best match so far is the gearbox used on 1.6 206's (code CD32), all the ratios match the 1.3 Rallye gearbox but fd is something like 17x64. There are a few later 1.4 106's with the same gear ratios as well.

Rallye Rich 10-11-2005 10:14 PM

ah good to know, looks like ill end up buying 2 box's tho! one for the 59 FD and another with the correct ratios!:(

Dave P 10-11-2005 10:25 PM

Dont all the sporty 106's use the same ratios and only the FD's change?

What are you looking for exactly Rich?

The worst thing with the MA boxes is the big hole between 1st & 2nd gear. :(

106rallye.co.uk 10-11-2005 11:58 PM

check the gearbox stats in the stats section.....

all 106 boxes have the same ratios, only the final drive differs

sandy309 11-11-2005 07:13 AM

Rallye's, GTi/VTS and XSi's have the same gear ratios, others differ with Diesel being the worst. But as Dave says, the 1st-2nd hole remains and the synchros are weak, MA's are not my favorite gearboxes!

All the following are max speeds (mph) in each gear with a 7000rpm limiter and 185/55/14 tyres.

Typical MA 4 speed (3.58FDR)
1st 40.7
2nd 70.7
3rd 113.3
4th 158.0

Typical 954/1124cc (4.29 FDR)
1st 34.0
2nd 59.1
3rd 83.8
4th 104.3
5th 139.5

Typical 1360 (3.77 FDR)
1st 33.5
2nd 62.5
3rd 95.4
4th 118.7
5th 158.8

S1 Rallye (4.54 FDR)
1st 29.6
2nd 51.8
3rd 74.3
4th 96.2
5th 118.8

1.4 XSi (4.29 FDR)
1st 31.3
2nd 54.8
3rd 78.6
4th 101.8
5th 125.7

1.6 XSi/S2 Rallye (4.06 FDR)
1st 33.0
2nd 57.9
3rd 83.0
4th 107.6
5th 132.9

Gti/VTS (3.94 FDR)
1st 34.1
2nd 59.7
3rd 85.6
4th 110.9
5th 137.0


VTR (3.77 FDR)
1st 38.7
2nd 67.3
3rd 95.4
4th 118.7
5th 158.8

The red ones are the close ratio sets, and the others are wider spaced, but the 1.1 seems to have good 1stto 2nd spacing, but poor 2nd to 3rd

sandy309 11-11-2005 07:15 AM

Revs drop changing up at 7000rpm (from gear below).

Typical MA 4 speed (3.58FDR)

2nd 4000
3rd 4400
4th 5100

Typical 954/1124cc (4.29 FDR)

2nd 4150
3rd 5000
4th 5700
5th 5200

Typical 1360 (3.77 FDR)

2nd 3300
3rd 4700
4th 5700
5th 5250

S1 Rallye (4.54 FDR)

2nd 4050
3rd 4800
4th 5450
5th 5700

1.4 XSi (4.29 FDR)

2nd 4050
3rd 4800
4th 5450
5th 5700
1.6 XSi/S2 Rallye (4.06 FDR)

2nd 4050
3rd 4800
4th 5450
5th 5700

Gti/VTS (3.94 FDR)

2nd 4050
3rd 4800
4th 5450
5th 5700


VTR (3.77 FDR)

2nd 3900
3rd 4950
4th 5600
5th 5250

sandy309 11-11-2005 07:16 AM

Here are the quaife close ratio gear sets with a Gti diff ratio....

Quaife Low gearset (3.938 FDR)
1st 34.1
2nd 49.4 4950
3rd 64.7 5300
4th 79.4 5600
5th 96.6 5600

Quaife High gearset (3.938 FDR)
1st 45.9
2nd 66.0 4900
3rd 81.9 5600
4th 97.8 5850
5th 111.6 6200

I hope that's interesting cos it took me bloody ages!

Alex Astall 11-11-2005 10:48 AM

thanks for the hard work sandy. thats cleared things up allot. Really interesting to see how all the ratios compare, anyone know if a 1.0/1.1 gearbox will be built any weaker than say a gti/rallye gbox? Or are they all the same strength wise??

Ian B 11-11-2005 10:55 AM

niceone sandy! ive now got my self a copy of that! maybe this information should also be added to the spec part of the site, it gets asked quite regulary

Rallye Rich 11-11-2005 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave P
Dont all the sporty 106's use the same ratios and only the FD's change?

What are you looking for exactly Rich?

The worst thing with the MA boxes is the big hole between 1st & 2nd gear. :(


yeah thats my point, my Q is are there any other ma box's in the range that share these 'sporty' ratios, but say from a 206 or c3 as that way it'll be low millage and like new!! :) my wording is just probably shite!



sandy what a waste of time, youve bored me solid!!! ;)


nice one dude:D

sandy309 12-11-2005 06:14 AM

The C2 GT uses the ratios iirc, with a 4.54 diff I think too. The only trouble is, later TU5JP4 engines has a modified crankshaft end which means the later boxes might not be compatible with earlier crankshafts. Machining would solve the problem though from what I can see.

Baz F 12-11-2005 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandy309

All the following are max speeds (mph) in each gear with a 7000rpm limiter and 185/55/14 tyres.

Typical MA 4 speed (3.58FDR)
1st 40.7
2nd 70.7
3rd 113.3
4th 158.0


no way you could do 158mph in 4th sandy....

aaron w 12-11-2005 01:20 PM

The 206 and c3 have hydrolic clutches so you would have to tranfer it into a 106 or saxo case, sorry if this has already been said or thought of :o

sandy309 12-11-2005 05:16 PM

That's a only the theoretical top speed Baz, if the car was able to rev out in that gear.

Baz F 12-11-2005 05:22 PM

having used one of them there 4-speeds and taken it to about 6.5k rpm in 4th i still have to say i question your calcluations there. Not that i'd come up with anything close in a week of sundays but it looks wrong to me. Surly the bhp of the engine would affect it? i am quite confuzed.

sandy309 12-11-2005 07:48 PM

It's not a function of the power of the engine, but it is a function of the final drive ratio. ^Those values are typical, not all the 4 speeds will have the same FDR.

Baz F 12-11-2005 07:50 PM

fair goes mate.
your signatures out btw

Mark Davey 13-11-2005 05:46 PM

For anyone who's interested there's a useful software application freely available for download from the Quaife website which calculates all these gearing figures for you. You simply provide the ratios, final drive, tyre size and rev limit etc. Also provides graphs of the results.

Can be download from here:
http://www.quaife.co.uk/products/gearboxes.htm

Cheers Mark

Rallye Rich 13-11-2005 10:06 PM

cheers for more info guys,

didnt relaise about the hyd clutches, looks like a c2 gt box transferred to my existing casing could be the answer. :D

Alex Astall 14-11-2005 02:34 AM

anyone know if a 1.0/1.1 gearbox will be built any weaker than say a gti/rallye gbox? Or are they all the same strength wise?? Also will a 1.0/1.1 box fit onto my 1998 s2 rallye, my box is very tired at 100k and the gear change is really crunchy. Could i just buy a cheap 1.0/1.1 gearbox and replace my rallye one with it as the ratio's dont seem too long???

Paul R 14-11-2005 01:08 PM

as i under stand there all made out of chocolate anyway? lol

Sandy have you got the Ratio's for the VTS and VTR box? or know where i could nick em from?

Alex Astall 14-11-2005 03:41 PM

Also would the 205 rallye gearbox be any use? whould that fit and what would the ratio's be like on that?

Baz F 14-11-2005 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Astall
Also would the 205 rallye gearbox be any use? whould that fit and what would the ratio's be like on that?

If its TU i see no reason why i wont fit but you might need to change the engine mount on it or some such. Again thats not a problem.
yes infact peugeot do have a special 2 for 1 deal with cadbury's on gear box's. Iv herd the newer ones are slightly stronger tho have no info to back it up.
Far as i know the 205Rallye box is ruffly a XS box, so the ratio should be nice'n low.

sandy309 14-11-2005 06:59 PM

The 205 Rallye (UK) box is poo, it's the same as the VTR, not the XS.

VTS/106GTi:
FDR=3.98:1
1st=3.417:1
2nd=1.95:1
3rd=1.36:1
4th=1.05:1
5th=0.85:1

VTR:
FDR=3.77:1
1st=3.417:1
2nd=1.81:1
3rd=1.28:1
4th=0.98:1
5th=0.77:1

Sam_Rallye 14-11-2005 11:29 PM

BE4R rich ;)

sandy309 14-11-2005 11:48 PM

Ssh!

darrenwm 14-11-2005 11:50 PM

Sandy, any idea why the UK Rallye box (205) is so lllooonnggg?!?!?!

Nick S 14-11-2005 11:55 PM

i have a 1.1i box on my GTi, feels alot quicker. below are indicated speeds i hit with each gearbox on the standard limiter

1.1

2nd - 62mph
3rd - 83mph
4th - 110mph
5th - havn't gone that far yet

GTi

2nd - 66mph
3rd - 91mph
4th - 120mphish
5th - 147mph

darrenwm 14-11-2005 11:58 PM

Gti engine and box (on airfield)

2nd - 65
3rd - 90
4th - 115 (screaming)
5th - 135 (not going any further)

All are indicated speeds, so knock off 10% :)

sandy309 15-11-2005 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrenmayne
Sandy, any idea why the UK Rallye box (205) is so lllooonnggg?!?!?!

Because it had the XR engine/gearbox package, not the XS one as many people think.

Rallye Rich 16-11-2005 07:15 PM

Be4r???

dont make me google it!!

Gregg 16-11-2005 09:22 PM

There are a few 307's out there with TU engines and BE gearbox's, all the ones I've seen have been 307 SW's with TU5JP engines. Not sure what you'd do about drive shafts but the cable gear shift might be helpful for the fitting........

Rallye Rich 16-11-2005 09:36 PM

so is there an adaptor between the bell housing is it? or does the 4r bolt directly on? sounds good. cable shift to, get it mounted nice and high in a custom centre console :D time to get 307 hunting!! any idea on the ratios used also?

thanks

Gregg 16-11-2005 09:51 PM

No idea on the ratios used, probably quite long I'd imagine. Not sure if how interchangeable the internals would be with other BE box's either. The box itself looks like it has a unique casing to bolt straight on to the TU engine, no adaptor plate or separate bell housing. Think the cars I saw them on were around 53/04/54 plate, before the latest ET3 engine came in.

Sam_Rallye 17-11-2005 12:09 AM

I have one sitting in my garage ;)

JamesI06XSl 17-11-2005 12:32 AM

i'll have a 68k old 1.6 XSi box for sale come xmas time if anyones interested

dynofiend 17-11-2005 11:55 PM

also just so as you know, there are two VTR boxes, the long one as sandy described above. But there is also one which uses the same ratios as the close spaced rallye boxes etc, only using a 3.937 FD. Which equates to it running only 250rpm less at 130mph in top gear than an s2 rallye box, so basicly is the same as an s2 rallye box.

Intrestingly, in the causes of science i decided to check the differences in performance between an s2 rallye box and a long vtr box on GT4 in a std 106 gti, the top speeds achieved are identical, albeit the s2 rallye does it at 7000 rpm (130mph). 1/4 miles times were 0.13 seconds faster with the rallye box with a terminal speed about 4 mph faster. In the standing km, the rallye box was 0.14 seconds faster with a 1mph faster terminal speed.

So not really huge differences on paper, however, driving the two boxes around circuits it soon became clear the the long box was harder to work with.

In addition to this i also tested out the s1 rallye and 1.4 xsi against the s2 rallye box and came up with intresting results. The S2 rallye box is faster over the 1/4 mile and standing km by about 0.2 seconds, probably as it has one less gearchange within those measurements than the s1 rallye or 1.4 xsi box. But even so pretty intresting as the terminal speeds are in excess of 100 mph which is about the max you will be reaching on track.

Maybe the s1 rallye box shouldnt be as sought after as it is...

sandy309 18-11-2005 06:50 AM

The GT4 gearing may be accurate, but the times ceratinly aren't, if you fully tune a 106 gti to 200bhp or whatever, it still only does 15 second 1/4 miles! And the gearchanges take an age.

Sam_Rallye 18-11-2005 08:44 AM

How can you relate a GAME to real life?

jameshilton 18-11-2005 09:51 AM

you can't relate the game to real life - I think Matt was trying to say it was a fair(ish) way to compare all the boxes (well I guess just putting the ratios into the racing box?) on the same car.

as an exercise its raised some interesting discussion points in my opinion. the times can't be considered accurate mind - but then I don't think that was the point? ;)

all this gearbox talk is making me wonder about mine again - I'm sure its not an S1 box on my Rallye - will take a look at the code this winter when its up on axle stands :)

dynofiend 18-11-2005 10:20 AM

Im not trying to relate a game to real life, although its about as an accurate simulation of a peugeot 106 as exists, i know its not real.

What it does provide is a direct comparison between different gear ratios, whilst keeping everything else totally constant. Although i have to admit that the gear changes take far too long. Ill try it using a different clutch which speeds up the gear changes.

Whilst some may scoff at using a game to imitate real life, pilots use microsoft flight sim to polish up their skills and practise landing at different airports, and i have to say GT4 was a pretty good help when visiting the Nurburgring this year.

Sam_Rallye 18-11-2005 11:22 AM

I think I must be missing it here. I always though a 16v GTI box would top out at 140/145 odd, yet a VTR box would be doing 160 at the same sort of rpm? Yet GT4 claims they are the same (at slightly different RPMS), so how can it even be a realistic represention of the ratios.

dynofiend 18-11-2005 11:58 AM

ahh becuase the gti i used was std, and wouldnt go any faster than that due to the wind resistance. If id upped the power it would have gone alot faster but it topped out at 130 on both boxes. I actually didnt test it with the gti ratios doh

sandy309 18-11-2005 12:18 PM

LoL, this is getting silly!

Baz F 18-11-2005 12:41 PM

still want to see you kocking on the door of 160 with a 4-speed sandy ;)

sandy309 18-11-2005 03:26 PM

MPH/1000rpm in 4th with 185/55/14 tyres:

FDR 3.58:1 is 22.39mph/1000rpm 156.73mph@7000rpm

FDR 3.77:1 is 21.26mph/1000rpm 148.82mph@7000rpm

FDR 3.94:1 is 20.34mph/1000rpm 142.38mph@7000rpm

FDR 4.29:1 is 18.68mph/1000rpm 130.76mph@7000rpm

Above are all the FDR ratios I know to have been fitted the MA4 box. No standard 205 fitted with the MA4 as standard would reach 7000rpm in top, not enough power, but if it could those are the speeds it would reach.


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