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-   -   stripping BE3/4 Gearboxes - fun times (http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showthread.php?t=77527)

jools 03-12-2010 10:26 AM

Building BE3/4 Gearboxe - fun times
 
The last week I have been mostly spending my evenings in the garage stripping four of the five BE3/4 gearboxes I have aquired, and the garage floor is littered with cases and gears in various labeled piles, in the quest for bits to build up my BE4 gearbox for the 106

For those of you who are interested I have used the following:

1. Brand new still in crate BE4R berlingo box for the case and selectors and donated it's new bearings and syncro rings to freshen up the rest of the box.
2. Peugeot 205 1.9 GTi (BE3) for the input shaft and the 1st-5th gear clusters that are close ratio.
3. A 1998 Citroen despatch box with a 4.9 final drive ratio (be3)

I have also have:
4. 206 gti 180 box that I have stripped to keep the ratios (be4) just in case I need to change the final drive and pinion and I can source a good be4 one (selling the case)
5. 306 s16 box that I was going to use for the 4.43 final drive and pinion, but surplas to requirements (CWP now sold so that will be a 5th box that needs to be stripped)

The 306 box may donate it's 5th gear should I need a lower my revs when crusing in 5th, as the planned box will likely have a top speed of 110 with 45 profile tyres, but planning to change to 50 profile tyres for a better selection of tyres.

This is all put together with a lovely gripped diff.

There are a few subtle differences between the be3 and be4 boxes on both the selector mec and the pinion shaft, which I will post up when I get the chance. as it does have an impact on the mixing and matching of ratios between be3 and be4.

Now have to make up the two shafts and dummy build the box before the final assembly.

I will keep people updated, but please remember this is only a blog and not a how to guide - When buying stuff please check part numbers and measurements i.e. shims, driveshafts lengths etc for yourself. I would hate for people to copy me and find out it is wrong.

welshpug 03-12-2010 10:38 AM

Look forward to the updates :D

I had heard of the many minor differences, but hard to find precisely what fits and what doesn't, and I've not stripped a BE4 yet!

Gus 03-12-2010 11:49 AM

Sounds like a headache, watch and not get muddled up!

Saxosteve 03-12-2010 01:30 PM

The differences are 3rd – 4th – 5th pinion internal spline. When you use the BE-4 final

drive you must use the BE4 pinion gears. When using a BE-3 final drive pinion you need to use the BE-3 pinion gears.

A common misconception is that they are totally mixable.

welshpug 03-12-2010 02:03 PM

I'd heard that bit, all the other bits swappable?

Saxosteve 03-12-2010 02:10 PM

Pretty much with a bit of common sence.

Aftermarket gearsets + FDs I can't comment on quite yet. ;)

Ben M 03-12-2010 04:29 PM

Jools, is the berlingo box linkage and manual clutch or cable and hyd clutch ?????

Do you have to use all BE3 bits or can you use BE1 bits ????

What do you need to do about the bearing carrier for the drivers drive shaft ????

welshpug 03-12-2010 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M (Post 733952)
What do you need to do about the bearing carrier for the drivers drive shaft ????

use the one that matches the donor BE4 casing.

the linkages and clutch levers can all be swapped easily enough.

jools 04-12-2010 08:27 AM

So far i am using be4 case and selector mec which is normal rod shift. The clutch is hydraulic and will need changing to cable (but lets get the box built first!). I am using the BE3 sourced input and pinion shafts, crown wheel and gears.

To freshen up the box I am using the new bearings and syncros sourced from the BE4 box and as far as I can tell they are identicle (why would peugeot/citroen chance them if they work well? The splined section that the syncro rings move up and down on are different with be4 boxes having 1/2 the number of splines. Will get a photo to explain (hopefully)

The other difference I have found so far is between BE3 and 4 pinion shafts apart from the splines for 3rd,4th and 5th is the overal length of the shaft as the be4 shaft is a fraction longer as the be4 5th is slightly thicker.

Of course it all works so far, got to put the thing back together!

For the drivers driveshaft I have sourced an intermediate bearing carrier from a 1600 berling. The shaft solution will be tackled next year when I have the box made up, and have some spare time and cash.

Saxosteve 04-12-2010 08:39 AM

Are you using this on a 106/Saxo? I can do a set if hubs and spacers for you. There is an oem n/s shaft that is a direct fit btw.

jools 04-12-2010 09:10 AM

This is for a s2 rallye.
Tell me more about the hubs. Very interested in knowing which oem shaft is a direct fit, I have heard that a higher spec 306 shaft may fit, but need to confirm this.

welshpug 04-12-2010 09:38 AM

hubs; you need to get some BE pattern ones turned down to fit the 106 bearing, and something like a 2mm spacer between the bearing and the hub flange (TU bearings are narrower, the spacer will retain the same offset on the flange)

once that is done you can use a 306/zx/xsara/partner/berlingo n/s shaft (they're all the same subframes and wishbones, pas and non pas have different length shafts due to the lower balljoints used iirc)

jools 04-12-2010 09:50 AM

aye a scrap yard hunt is in order I think.

Saxosteve 04-12-2010 10:49 AM

Welsh pug. It's not a 2mm spacer. Also you need to fit later model 37mm I.d bearings. As the taper of the end of the be shaft will fowl with the smaller bearing.
You are also wrong about what n/s shafts will fit. Berlingo, xsara and piccaso will not fit.

You should really get yours done before giving direction to folk lol then you will be able to advise appropriately.
It is a 306 shaft for a 1.8 16v model.

There is also an outer 2 piece hybrid that works. I'm keeping that to myself fir now though :)

Hope that helps jools, pm me if need any info chap.

The intermediate carrier must be from a Picasso 1.6 8v tu also, there are 2 that look very very similar. The correct one actually has tu5be in the casting of it's rear face. The cut off the old engine mounting piece to save weight :P

welshpug 04-12-2010 12:13 PM

how thick is the spacer then steve?

and why will the other shafts not fit?


Granted I have not done the conversion all myself, but I have gathered as much information as I can and helped a guy I service a Saxo Rally car to get and make the parts required.

Saxosteve 04-12-2010 01:14 PM

A proper Saxo Rallye Car will have different hubs with different offsets and different shafts as it uses a 1 piece o/s shaft and also doesnt have a speedo drive housing, just a blanking plate. So thats not really relevant is it with regards to a 'DIY' BE kit.

I gave you the majority of the information regarding the conversion on SSC remember.

The other shafts do not fit.. because I have tried picasso and xsara vts. They did not fit. I also wasted money buying a 406 1.8 16v coupe shaft which was the wrong length also.


Regarding your pm about supplying you with dimensions for the upper BE engine mount welshpug , I am unable to at the moment as am currently away with work for a 2 week stint. I can give you dimensions from the 4th of january onwards though as thats when I'm next back in aberdeen and at the workshop.

Buy a pair of stainless spacers from me for 20 and you will find out how wide they need to be. Along with BE hubs to suit for 30.. ;) mates rates.

welshpug 04-12-2010 01:36 PM

you're not quite right there, it was the 106's that used one piece shafts, the Citroens used two piece on the right hand side ;) Its a home built car I service for that hasn't got that many off the shelf bits on it, does have Citroen Sport driveshafts now, 500 a pair :o

If I haven't got those dimensions before, I will get in touch when you get back Steve, that'll save a lot of time in the garage!

Spacers, 3.5mm then? :D

Saxosteve 04-12-2010 03:37 PM

What class of rally car is it welshpug you service on? I'm sure your aware of the many different incarnations of the Saxo rally car can come in. Lol

500 for genuine citsport shaft is cheap, not brand new surely? If so bargain!

I'm looking at doing another o/s shaft as even using the current carrier and 2piece item, it's not 100% equal length. The new shaft will consist of matching 306 outer half, repositioned carrier attachment with a custom inner half to provide equilibrium! Haha :)

welshpug 04-12-2010 04:04 PM

Essentially just a clubman rally car, it doesn't fit into group N or Group A at all though it started off as Group N, Garry wanted something quicker!

Satchel throttle bodies, cams and high comp, about 180 bhp, lots of Citroen sport bit here and there, home made BE4 conversion.

That was brand new shafts from CitSport last year :D Proper uprated items.

Taking attention to detail to another level that is with proper equal length shafts!


Sorry for taking your topic slightly offline Jools :lol:

freddy6868 04-12-2010 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saxosteve (Post 734032)
Welsh pug. It's not a 2mm spacer. Also you need to fit later model 37mm I.d bearings. As the taper of the end of the be shaft will fowl with the smaller bearing.
You are also wrong about what n/s shafts will fit. Berlingo, xsara and piccaso will not fit.

You should really get yours done before giving direction to folk lol then you will be able to advise appropriately.
It is a 306 shaft for a 1.8 16v model.

There is also an outer 2 piece hybrid that works. I'm keeping that to myself fir now though :)
Hope that helps jools, pm me if need any info chap.

The intermediate carrier must be from a Picasso 1.6 8v tu also, there are 2 that look very very similar. The correct one actually has tu5be in the casting of it's rear face. The cut off the old engine mounting piece to save weight :P

Think i know what that one is off.hehe

jools 04-12-2010 04:53 PM

Not a problem taking the topic slightly off course, as there is much relevance to the topics. I am also very greatfull for others sharing information as I am happy to share any information gained through my own discoveries, basically it is the only way I and I am sure others will be able to do this conversion.

VTR turbo 06-12-2010 08:33 PM

http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=349761


;)

Dieseldave 06-12-2010 09:58 PM

How much of a sucess are welded shafts? The whole idea of a bigger shaft
is to be stronger and more reliable and how do you ballance a cut and welded shaft.

Is there any solid/solid end shaft you can use that can be cut back and re-splined?

welshpug 06-12-2010 10:04 PM

plenty strong enough for most on here I'd imagine, I have experience of shortened hollow Peugeot/Citroen shafts in V6 conversions, both 205 and 306, these engines as standard run a nice fat 200 lbft.

these shafts are not balanced from the factory, as as long as they are still straight after welding they will be fine.

sandy309 07-12-2010 05:56 AM

Depends on the quality of the work. We've been running welded shafts on a range of road and competition cars for years with no problems, even on the stickiest Avons.

jools 07-12-2010 08:06 PM

Yet more lovely information coming out, many thanks all!

Fith and final box stripped tonight, got to press the rest of the bearings this week, then build the box up at the weekend/next week.

VTR turbo 07-12-2010 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dieseldave (Post 734409)
How much of a sucess are welded shafts? The whole idea of a bigger shaft
is to be stronger and more reliable and how do you ballance a cut and welded shaft.

Is there any solid/solid end shaft you can use that can be cut back and re-splined?

the standard picasso shafts are hollow so you cant cut the end off and respline as there thicker in there middle
mine have been cut on a lathe and have a stepped dowel in the middle that has a 45 degree angle on the leading edge along with the shaft to give a greater area to weld too
the dowel fits in to the shaft 1.5 inches each way so if the weld did break the shaft would just split and not fly about and smash things up

ill try and get some more pics at the weekend as i should be taking the box out

jools 09-12-2010 12:17 PM

Finished putting the gears bearings etc on the shafts, and dummy built the box to check the selector mec worked ok.

Have used the following BE3 205 1.9 gti gear cluster, on Citroen Dispatch BE3 4.9 crown wheel and pinion.

New syncro rings used with standard 205 syncro hubs (they look sturdier than later BE4 ones).
New bearings.

Still deciding on whether to go for BE4 selector mec or convert to BE3, as the BE3 mec looks to be sturdier, although the BE4 box I have being new should be on the button.

Need to get some sealant to seal up the box when putting it together. Any recommendations?

Mankee 09-12-2010 03:14 PM

I use Loctite 5922, which you can get from Halfords and the like.

jools 12-12-2010 06:04 PM

Cheers Mankee, did not manage to get some so it will have to wait. Fitted the diff to the crown wheel today using new bolts and some thread lock. Had to grind back a couple of high spots in the case where the new diff body touched so the case clamps the bearings properly. Not have at least .5mm clearence between the diff and gearbox case, Essential to do this as if you do not it will write your diff off, and will cost you lots to repair!

Think I have decided to stick with te BE4 selector mec, as the change is on the button. I have a spare set of BE3 selectors now tucked away just in case.

So now need to build the thing up for real. Maybe this week!

Should put up some photos, but think they need to be hosted some where?? Computors not my thng really

welshpug 12-12-2010 06:54 PM

I use FlickR or Photobucket, then post the url in [img] [/img ] tags :)

Flickr is better as it gives several smaller images you can post on the forums .

jools 12-12-2010 07:08 PM

Will do, thanks for that

Ben M 15-12-2010 11:46 AM

Sorry to spam youre thread Jools but i just thought i should let people know that the info here:
Quote:

Originally Posted by VTR turbo (Post 734400)

Is absolute bullsh*te

I am currently looking for parts to convert a hyd clutched box to cable operation and have ordered the parts as listed in the thread above from main dealer and been faced with a clutch cable that doeasnt even look at going through the hole in the 106 bulkhead, a hyd clutch lever !!!! and a bracket (the correct one)

i have so far spent 120 and have 115 worth of Sh*te

can anyone point me in the direction of the correct clutch cable and fork part numbers or a berlingo chassis number or reg to help me get this sorted

Again sorry for the spamming Jools, just thought it would help prevent people spending money on incorrect parts, as i unfortunately have.

welshpug 15-12-2010 06:10 PM

there isn't a "correct" clutch cable, they all have to be modified to buy the whole kit from atspeed or the modified one from tich308 (or get your own custom unit made)

Also you don't need a VIN number at all, use the "old parts catalogue" from the menu on servicebox and its much easier to find what you need.

jools 15-12-2010 06:19 PM

Don't worry about spamming, as this kind of conversation is exactly what BE conversions need. I am affraid to say you have also just saved me about 115.00 as I was going to buy that lot. I will just buy the bracket.

I have however bought a lovely pair of genuine new Peugeot driveshafts, a 306 1800 lhs one and a 306/405 RhS one, both non abs. Hope the buggers fit when modified. Thought about buying second hand, and recondition them, but these worked out cheeper.

VTR turbo 15-12-2010 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M (Post 735671)
Sorry to spam youre thread Jools but i just thought i should let people know that the info here:

Is absolute bullsh*te


yes your right i did it as a joke, as you can see in this pic the car is being pedaled along flintstone style as this picture was taken after i used them parts to convert my car

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y24...9102010357.jpg

the cable is longer than a 106 one but its a conversion useing genuine parts so its not goint to be the correct length
the cable fits in the bulkhead but you need to change the gromet, if you cant do that then you should probably leave the conversion to someone who knows there way around a car

jools 15-12-2010 07:00 PM

I take it from this the parts are not simple plug and play, but need some fettling, with the clutch arm I assume you take a standard hydraulic arm and adapt it to take a cable in the end by drilling a hole in the centre where the clutch slave clylinder sits an a couple of cuts to the outer edge allowing the cable to be placed in the arm. Is the cable simple to modify?

Not that any of this bothers me, it just makes it more interesting!

VTR turbo 15-12-2010 08:39 PM

no there is 2 different arms, one for hydraulic( you can modify it but its shorter and makes the clutch heaveyer) and one for cable
the cable i used is a little too long but it works and is much cheaper than the atspeed one

GSF do the cable all of it together is nowhere near 120

jools 16-12-2010 07:21 AM

thanks for the info.

Ben M 16-12-2010 09:17 AM

My intention wasnt to slate anyone, just to find out correct info and possibly warn others of my mistakes.

I have found an alternatie part from dealer that should be with me tomorrow, i'll let ou all know if its the correct one.

As for the cable, does this tich308 have them custom made ??? How can i get hold of him ???

RossDagley 16-12-2010 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M (Post 735794)
As for the cable, does this tich308 have them custom made ??? How can i get hold of him ???

He modifies them himself. If you PM me I can give you his phone number - alternatively his username is "titch308" on most forums (here, 106OC, sax-p etc).
:)

Ben M 17-12-2010 02:54 PM

Feel like i'm actually getting somewhere now. Clutch arm, release bearing and cable outer bracket sorted, onto the cable now.

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...01217-1355.jpg

Saxosteve 17-12-2010 04:51 PM

Could you post the correct part number for the cable clutch arm BenM for the benefit if other forum users please.

jools 18-12-2010 09:18 AM

aye part numbers would be very helpfull, as that cutch arm looks longer to the one I have just bought, I have got 2117.66 off ebay new for 7.00.

Just putting the gearbox back together, the main case is now sealed and bolted together, got to assemble 5th gear and dropped the stepped washer that sits under the 5th gear bush on the input shaft and I cannot remember whch way it goes up. Any ideas - I think it is flat face up against the bush but if anyone can confirm this it would be great.

Many thanks

jools 19-12-2010 07:51 AM

Some photos, hopefully they will work.

Main case with Gears from 205 1.9 gti and 4.9 final drive, new bearings and syncro rings etc, decided to keep the BE4 selectors as they were al set up in the box. I have a spare set of BE3 just in case I decide to use them
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...oxbuild002.jpg

Main case put back together. Managed to work out the stepped washer was flat side up thanks to Service box
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...oxbuild003.jpg

Box now wating for end case cover which has been sprayed black.
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...oxbuild004.jpg

Antonio_Bliek 19-12-2010 09:03 AM

Great!

jools 23-12-2010 06:57 AM

Thought I would post up some of the costs of my gearbox for people to see it is not as much as people think, The box it'self is just over 1k. The fitting is around 650-750 est, but for all that I am getting a bomb proof box which will hopefully require little spending on it apart from servicing the diff once in a while, and driveshafts that will stand up to the punishment.

Gearbox costs
Citroen berlingo box. New. 250 - ebay
Peugeot 205 gti box. 100
Recon Gripper Diff 480 (rebuilt by gripper with only the plates being reused)
Citroen dispatch box 70 - ebay
Rear driveshaft mount 25 - ebay
Driveshafts 140 - ebay - New genuine Peugeot
Total 1,065

Left to spend -fitting.
Hubs, machining etc 50 - machining by friend for free.
Bearings 50
Altering driveshafts 100-200 (will have to see if the 1800 petrol shaft fits)
Brackets, new engine mounts clutch cable nuts bolts etc (inc a bit of material for mounts)
100
Colins gear shift mec 300 est (luxuary - not essential)

Total costs 1665 -1765 est without recouped costs.

The eventual costs will depend on what I sell from my old bits for. I have various bits from some BE boxs. My 106 Rallye box (leo's old box), standard driveshafts (50k) and Grp A selector mec TAZ alloy quick shift, bulk head mounted crank (all done under 2k). The 106 bits will be available late 2011-early 2012.

Hope this is some help to people.

Aleksandr 23-12-2010 09:20 AM

Nice work dude, I always think the BE looks mahussive bolted to the TU engine :D Any idea of the weight difference?

Oh and I would snap up that bell crank when you start selling the MA bits, mine is shagged.

jools 23-12-2010 10:05 AM

Aye, it's almost as big as the engine. No idea about the weight difference is, but from memory the box in dry trim is under 40kg's + the extra weight of driveshafts and larger hubs. I am not really bothered about the weight as it it is a question of realibility and cost effectiveness over a slight weight penality in this case. I would be spending the same money if not more on a nice close ratio ma box, that was still inherently weak.

For those who are interested these are the ratios and speeds.
Ratios. (205 1.9 GTi ratios and Citroen Dispatch Non TD FD)
1st 2.92, 2nd 1.85, 3rd 1.36, 4th 1.07, 5th 0.87 FD 4.93

Top speeds mph shifting at 7200, with 195 45 15 tyres
1st 33, 2nd 51, 3rd 70, 4th 89, 5th 109.

Top speeds shifting at 7200 with 195 50 15 (prefered tyres).
1st 34, 2nd 53, 3rd 72, 4th 92, 5th 113.

The engine will rev to 7500, but 7200 is in an attempt to preserve the engine.

If I change 5th to 0.76 I get a top speed of 125 and 130 for the two tyre profiles, but more importanly crusing at 70 would be less painfull

welshpug 23-12-2010 10:39 AM

Its about 6-7 kilos difference between MA + BE boxes.

Shafts themselves wont weigh much ore as the outers are hollow, but CV's are more substantial (good thing!)


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