Anyone know the ratios and fd's for the MA box range??

[Aled P]

Just been reading through the postings on this thread. Makes for interesting reading. Problem is that i've just forked out to buy as S1 box for exactly the same problem. Im running an S2 in full tarmac spec for rallying and the first thing i noticed was the hell of a gap between 1st and 2nd. I knew that the gear ratios were the same whichever box you used, but i thought that if i changed for an S1 box, i would be out of first gear quicker and would give me more torque in 2nd; almost making first gear obsolete except for starting from the line. Reading through the comments, it seems that i might end up with almost the same problem and a few quid out of pocket to boot!

[darrenwm]

Don't worry - could easily sell the S1 'box!

[sandy309]

Back to life....

[busta]

Out of interest, does anyone have the ratios for a diesel box? Just to see how they compare.

I guess the FD is way out but how do the ratios stack up? If my diesel had a rev counter I'd do the maths myself lol!

[sandy309]

The Diesel FDR's are mostly 3.58 and 3.77.

The Diesel gear ratios are base model ratios as mentioned above. Nothing useful.

[lowrider]

Anyone knows which PSA models have a 4.29 FDR (14/60) MA gearbox apart from the 1.4 XSi? Based on Sandy's data it looks to be the best suited ratio for my GTi track car.

Since the VTS/GTI/XSi/Rallye boxes look to have the exact same ratios only with different FDR's, how easy is it to swap the final drive only?

[sandy309]

Late TU engined 309 1.1.

206 1.1, 1.4, 1.6 marked CE44, CD38 (other boxes are fitted too).

[lowrider]

Thanks for the info Sandy

Is it just a matter of swapping the final drive? How much work would that involve? In theory it seems a lot easier than trying to source a good 1.4 XSi gearbox.

[sandy309]

It's a matter of strip down, swap all the secondary shaft components over, swap the diff complete, unless you have an LSD in which case the crown wheels need swapping, which isn't easy. If you use a 206 box complete, you might need to change levers. The later 206 boxes are stronger, but I haven't yet confirmed if the internals are interchangeable. The C2, 307 etc have no clutch lever (hydraulic only), which complicates matters if you want to use one.

The 1.4 XSi box is one of the weakest it would seem.

[spyro]

Originally Posted by Sam_Rallye

I have one sitting in my garage

do you habe the ratios for be4r ?

[sandy309]

There are lots of final drive ratios, from 3.5 to 5.1 basically, but the gear ratios on the regular models are usually:
1st 3.45:1
2nd 1.87:1
3rd 1.25:1
4th 0.97:1
5th 0.795 or 0.745:1

[spyro]

Originally Posted by sandy309

There are lots of final drive ratios, from 3.5 to 5.1 basically, but the gear ratios on the regular models are usually:
1st 3.45:1
2nd 1.87:1
3rd 1.25:1
4th 0.97:1
5th 0.795 or 0.745:1

i was talking about the be4r from 307/picasso with tu bellhousing
i didnt knew i came out with a fd of 3.5 usually its only used on diesel engines
3.5 would be great on my car

[sandy309]

I was generalising about the BE4R FDR's, they're quite easy to swap. Picassos are usually 4.26:1 FDR.

[semtex]

the more i look at it the 1.4 box seems a good choice but the s1 box would keep the engine up in the power so to speak , what do you think would be best suited to the power band with 708's

[lowrider]

Originally Posted by semtex106

the more i look at it the 1.4 box seems a good choice but the s1 box would keep the engine up in the power so to speak , what do you think would be best suited to the power band with 708's

I had the same doubts as you, and went with a 4.29 FDR. In my case the choice was dictated by the fact that one of the tracks I run at has two long straights and the 4.54 FDR would mean doing large portions of those at top rpm in fifth...
In the end I got a plate LSD with both final drives, and it's pretty easy to swap them as the crownwheel just bolts to the diff housing, so no need for any machining.

[pugbeer]

Originally Posted by sandy309

Rallye's, GTi/VTS and XSi's have the same gear ratios, others differ with Diesel being the worst. But as Dave says, the 1st-2nd hole remains and the synchros are weak, MA's are not my favorite gearboxes!

All the following are max speeds (mph) in each gear with a 7000rpm limiter and 185/55/14 tyres.

Typical MA 4 speed (3.58FDR)
1st 40.7
2nd 70.7
3rd 113.3
4th 158.0

Typical 954/1124cc (4.29 FDR)
1st 34.0
2nd 59.1
3rd 83.8
4th 104.3
5th 139.5

Typical 1360 (3.77 FDR)
1st 33.5
2nd 62.5
3rd 95.4
4th 118.7
5th 158.8

S1 Rallye (4.54 FDR)
1st 29.6
2nd 51.8
3rd 74.3
4th 96.2
5th 118.8

1.4 XSi (4.29 FDR)
1st 31.3
2nd 54.8
3rd 78.6
4th 101.8
5th 125.7

1.6 XSi/S2 Rallye (4.06 FDR)
1st 33.0
2nd 57.9
3rd 83.0
4th 107.6
5th 132.9

Gti/VTS (3.94 FDR)
1st 34.1
2nd 59.7
3rd 85.6
4th 110.9
5th 137.0

VTR (3.77 FDR)
1st 38.7
2nd 67.3
3rd 95.4
4th 118.7
5th 158.8

The red ones are the close ratio sets, and the others are wider spaced, but the 1.1 seems to have good 1stto 2nd spacing, but poor 2nd to 3rd

In my eyes the ideal solution wil be to put the 1th and 2th gear form a 1.1 206 (stronger) gearbox in a nother (strong) close-ratio 206 ma-gearbox, that might solve the problem with the gear spacings en the lack of strengh. But i'm not sure if it's interchangeble.
(Sorry for my bad english, i'm from the Netherlands).

[sandy309]

206 ratios are the same as the rest of the MA range. The later boxes are slightly stronger, but still not in the BE's league.

[TB-George]

http://www.saxosportsclub.com/Forums...c/t=17814.html

Thats very useful

[Reidar]

I´ve just boght a low mileage gearbox from a 2001mod Partner 1,4.

Do anyone have the gear ratios for it?

I dont expect the gear ratios to be that well suited for sporty driving, but it has a 4,54 final drive(same as the s1Rallye). Most of the tracks around here(Norway) are quite short so I think the low final drive would be perfect.

What worries me are normal motorway driving, withch is allready a bit tiring with the original S2Rallye box.

But is there a chance that the Partner having such a low final drive has a high 5th gear to compensate?

My idea is to build a box with the 4,54 final drive from the Partner and the 1-4 from the S2Rallye. And then the Partner 5th to make longer journeys bearable.

[sandy309]

I've looked at the parts data and can confirm your final drive is 13x59 (4.54), there's no reall allusion to what the gear ratios are. You can identify them by counting the rotations in each gear and dividing the result by the FDR.

[Reidar]

Thanks Sandy!

Now I´ve chequed the gear ratios for the 1,4 Partner gearbox.

They are like this:

FDR=4,54:1
1st=3,41:1
2nd=1,76:1
3rd=1,32:1
4th=0,99:1
5th=0.77:1

As I had suspected and hoped for it have a 5.gear similar to the VTR to make up for the wery low final drive(same as S1Rallye). So I guess its perfect for my project to make a S2Rallye/Parter hybrid box with low geared 1-4th and a reasonably high 5ft for motorway cruising(allmost the same gearing in 5. as in the original S2Rallye box).

Other than that it seems that the gap between 1. and 2, gear are ewen bigger than on the VTR box, so I guess the Partner box is pretty useless for sporty cars left as is.
But still it have a few interesting bits...

@Sandy: Earlier in the thread you mentioned something about newer 206 MA boxes being stronger than the rest of the MA range. Can this be the case with the Partner box as well? In the online parts catalogue(servicebox) it said that it was "uprated"

[sandy309]

I would expect that the "uprated" name, indicates that it has the improved casings etc yes.

[Gwaredd]

Hmmm. I was hoping that the 1.4 Partner 'box would be the solution I was looking for too. I want a 'box that has 1st to 4th ratio's & FD that are the same as the S1 Rallye 'box, but a nice long 5th gear. My 16v is currently running a 1.1 'box & whilst it works OK & cruises fine, 1st to 4th could do with being shorter.

Looks like the 5th gear on the Partner 'box is only slightly longer than the S1 Rallye one @ 0.77:1 vs 0.85:1 for the Rallye, but still shorter than the 1.1 'box which is 0.767:1. So coupled with a higher FD, if I fitted the Partner 'box, it'd just end up revving higher all round. Bah!

An S1 Rallye 'box with a 0.740:1 5th gear would suit me perfectly, with 4th taking you up to & over 100mph, with a nice cruising 5th for the motorway.

[zebedee]

Could someone please explaing how the speed in mph is worked out from rpm, wheel size (diameter?), gear ratio and final drive ratio.

[welshpug]

I found a TU BE4 from a Picasso and checked the ratio's for it, they seem fairly good as standard for a VTS though maybe a tad large a jump from 1st to 2nd for my liking, till I realised what the VTS gears were like, wonder if 1st to 2nd was like that to aid traction?

DL67 is the code,

4.26 F/D

1st, 3.45 31mph 4.5mph/1k rpm
2nd, 1.86 58mph 8.3mph/1k rpm 3666rpm
3rd, 1.28 84mph 12mph/1k rpm 4860rpm
4th, 0.95 113mph 16.2mph/1k rpm 5047rpm
5th, 0.79 136mph 19.5mph/1k rpm 5655rpm

theoretically stick a 1.6 205 gti gearset in there on the same 4.26 Final drive;

MPH/1000rpm
4.6 8.3 11.3 14.4 17.7

Speeds @ 7000rpm

33 57 79 101 124

RPM @ shift

3976 5064 5507 5692

then, just for fun, 1.6 205 gti on a 4.43 Mi16 Final drive.

MPH/1000 rpm

4.5 7.9 10.9 13.8 17.0

gear speed @ 7000rpm

31 55 76 97 119

RPM @ shift

3912 5146 5507 5692


a bit better

[sandy309]

The 2.92:1 first is much better, which is why I point people towards the Mi16 box rather than the 1.6 GTI.

[welshpug]

ahhh right, wonder if I can stick the Mi first in the BE4r casing with the rest of the 1.6 gti cluster?

time to learn gearboxes I think

[sandy309]

1st, reverse and second are machined onto the primary shaft, so they go together. But you can add the 3rd/4th/5th, as long as you don't try to put the BE3 3/4/5th on the BE4 secondary shaft.

[jeffhd]

Does anyone know if they fitted a 4.29 final drive to a MA4 box?

[sandy309]

954cc 205s

[jeffhd]

Cheers sandy, do all 954cc 4 speed 205's have them?


Jeff

[80WYA]

Originally Posted by sandy309

The 2.92:1 first is much better, which is why I point people towards the Mi16 box rather than the 1.6 GTI.

your thoughts on a 1,9 BE3 gearset with 4:4 cwp from mi16?

[sandy309]

Even better for competition use. The 3rd/4th/5th being closer than the Mi16 ones. It means sourcing another box and more stripping/assembly though obviously. I was partly alluding to that fact that many 205 owners rave about the 1.6 GTI ratios, when the Mi16 ones are arguably better,mostly because of the 1st-2nd drop.

Originally Posted by jeffhd

Cheers sandy, do all 954cc 4 speed 205's have them?

Pretty much as far as I know.

[jeffhd]

Cheers sandy, has anyone got a MA4 with a 4.29 final drive, or maybe just the crown wheel and pinion please????

[welshpug]

Originally Posted by sandy309

Even better for competition use. The 3rd/4th/5th being closer than the Mi16 ones. It means sourcing another box and more stripping/assembly though obviously. I was partly alluding to that fact that many 205 owners rave about the 1.6 GTI ratios, when the Mi16 ones are arguably better,mostly because of the 1st-2nd drop.



Pretty much as far as I know.

had a play in a 205 rally car with that exact combination in it, only a standard engine but had the right suspension bits and a diff up front, went very well around llandow.



also got my hands on a 205 Roland Garros box that's in bits, a 20CA43, Might bung the final drive into my brother's saxo gearbox if the rest of the box is the same.

f/d 14x60 4.285

1st 12x41 3.41 4.5mph/1k
2nd 20x39 1.95 7.8 mph/1k 3889 RPM @ gearshift (6800)
3rd 28x38 1.35 11.3 mph/1k 4708 RPM @ gearshift
4th 37x39 1.05 14.6 mph/1k 5289 RPM @ gearshift
5th 41x35 0.85 18.0 mph/1k 5505 RPM @ gearshift


fair drop from 1st to 2nd, but seeing as they're al the same and all machined onto the primary shaft there's sod all I can do apart from an aftermarket gearset, or a BE gearbox....

[sandy309]

RG box is the same as XS.

[chrisc]

so is there a be gear box or a bellhousing to mount one to a standared tu engine, or could you build the internals in to an ma box?
Thanks chris

[welshpug]

I have a BE4J 20DL67 box to have a fiddle with, gear ratios in it are very close to standard VTS ones so ok for a road car but not ideal for rally or race use, the 90 hp one is fairly good, but the 100 hp one has a taller 3/4 at 1.148 and 0.82 compared to 1.28 and 0.951. DOH

Originally Posted by sandy309

1st, reverse and second are machined onto the primary shaft, so they go together. But you can add the 3rd/4th/5th, as long as you don't try to put the BE3 3/4/5th on the BE4 secondary shaft.

so I can use the BE3 primary shaft to get a decent 1/2nd, and a BE4 secondary shaft that I'd have to find a decent 3/4 and 5th.

isn't it the spline under 3/4 and the bush for 5th that differs?

[sandy309]

That's it. The secondary shaft from 3rd-5th is different on BE4.

[welshpug]

thanks

[Mclain]

I've been reading this thread with the outer most precision. I'm currently building a rally car, and its probably going to have approx 150 BHP.. The last year, i've rebuilded about 6 MA5 transmission, so even when i put in a rebuilded and strengtend MA5 type, i am sure that i will kill it over and over again.
So i've been reading up on BE conversion, cause i am sure i need the strength. if the conversion is do-able, i am thinking of putting one in my 106 Turbo as well.

But now, i've searched, but i cannot find where they put in a FD of 4.9 or even 5.1.. Cause i want the highest FD possible. I found out that de 20DM13 box has the 4.9 i am looking for.. But i cant find any..Now i've read that some vans Non turbo Diesel even have 5.1's..
Can anyone tell me for sure where i can find one of those, of in which car they can be found?

The closest ratio and the highest FD is what i am looking for

gr

[welshpug]

I very much doubt you'd want a 5.1 Final drive ratio with a turbo engine, you would just sit there spinning the wheels all the time!

The larger the number the shorter the gear, most likely something like a 3.9 would be more suitable.

[Mclain]

Thats why it says, put in my 106 Turbo as wel

The Rally car i am Currently building wil be a TU5J4 NA engine with 280 kentcams, Balanced crank, modified head, custom exhaust and a Megasquirt. For this car i want the highest Finaldrive and close ratio gears.

My other 106 has a TU5JP4 engine with different cams, GT28R Turbo, Custom Exhaust, 440cc injectors, Decompression kit etc etc. Looking for a safe 250 BHP. So in this car i will not be putting anything higher then 3.9 FD, maybe even lower. But this car will have to wait its turn.. Rally car has the priority and needs to be finished around feb/mar.

[welshpug]

ahhhhh!! I understand now

Its quite difficult to find exactly the final drive you want, its often best to get the casing and driveshaft bearing carrier, then find internals from elsewhere if possible.

[Mclain]

I already bought a Berlingo HDI gearbox with the TU belhousing. The Internals are the least of my problems. I am an Automatic Transmission Rebuild Specialist, and we have some contacts with company's who also have Manual gearbox spare parts or Core transmissions.
But the Final drive could be a problem.

Good news is that i finished my Homemade Baffled Sump today

[welshpug]

does the DV4 box fit the Tu engine? is there a hole for the TDC sensor?

[Mclain]

Dont know. Got a picture of the Berlingo BE4 gearbox, and the starter is in the right location, and its with a Cable,

I've been told these bellhousings can be used on the TU5 Engine. The TDC sensor isnt a problem for me. I coul either machine it in the bellhouse and weld the proper pieces to it, of put a different sensor in a different place.. I can input the angle in wich the sensor is located in the Megasquirt, so that wont be a problem.Only takes times. But i can have the gearbox for 50 euro. So i'll be taking that one anyway. I can use it for spare parts if neccesary.

I've been looking on Peugeot/Citroen Servicebox, and the 20DM13 box is the box we want for the final Drive. And is used on the Tu5 Engine. But nowwhere to be found. The 20DM12 on the other hand is.. But what i can see, is that it uses a Hydraulic Clutch, intead of the Cable. So dont know if that would be interchangeble, without welding the bracket pint etc from the original gearbox.

I'll keep you posted.

[Mclain]

Got my hands on a 20dm12 gearbox.. Expecting it next week. So i will keep you posted.

Did on the otherhand took appart a PG1 transmission from a lotus this week, looks allot like a BE gearbox..

[speedo]

hi gyus.can u tell me pls who can made shorter final drive ratio for pug 106 rallye S1? i would like 5 and more fdr,thanks for info

[welshpug]

Does the 106 Quicksilver model have the same ratios as a 1.4 XSi?