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Old 09-11-2005, 09:01 PM   #1
Rallye Rich
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Anyone know the ratios and fd's for the MA box range??

Been having a look for the ratios and fd's but cant find it. I know mark has the page on here with the xsi's and rallyes and 16v's. BUT, i cant find any low millage versions of those, yet 1.4 and 1.6 box's from c3's with like 10k are aplenty, and also some 1.1 saxo/106 boxes about. need to find some info on these tho??? anybody able to help??

cheers.
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:57 AM   #2
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Hmmm. I was hoping that the 1.4 Partner 'box would be the solution I was looking for too. I want a 'box that has 1st to 4th ratio's & FD that are the same as the S1 Rallye 'box, but a nice long 5th gear. My 16v is currently running a 1.1 'box & whilst it works OK & cruises fine, 1st to 4th could do with being shorter.

Looks like the 5th gear on the Partner 'box is only slightly longer than the S1 Rallye one @ 0.77:1 vs 0.85:1 for the Rallye, but still shorter than the 1.1 'box which is 0.767:1. So coupled with a higher FD, if I fitted the Partner 'box, it'd just end up revving higher all round. Bah!

An S1 Rallye 'box with a 0.740:1 5th gear would suit me perfectly, with 4th taking you up to & over 100mph, with a nice cruising 5th for the motorway.
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Old 11-01-2009, 07:24 PM   #3
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Could someone please explaing how the speed in mph is worked out from rpm, wheel size (diameter?), gear ratio and final drive ratio.
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Old 11-03-2009, 11:54 PM   #4
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I found a TU BE4 from a Picasso and checked the ratio's for it, they seem fairly good as standard for a VTS though maybe a tad large a jump from 1st to 2nd for my liking, till I realised what the VTS gears were like, wonder if 1st to 2nd was like that to aid traction?

DL67 is the code,

4.26 F/D

1st, 3.45 31mph 4.5mph/1k rpm
2nd, 1.86 58mph 8.3mph/1k rpm 3666rpm
3rd, 1.28 84mph 12mph/1k rpm 4860rpm
4th, 0.95 113mph 16.2mph/1k rpm 5047rpm
5th, 0.79 136mph 19.5mph/1k rpm 5655rpm


theoretically stick a 1.6 205 gti gearset in there on the same 4.26 Final drive;

MPH/1000rpm
4.6 8.3 11.3 14.4 17.7

Speeds @ 7000rpm

33 57 79 101 124

RPM @ shift

3976 5064 5507 5692

then, just for fun, 1.6 205 gti on a 4.43 Mi16 Final drive.

MPH/1000 rpm

4.5 7.9 10.9 13.8 17.0

gear speed @ 7000rpm

31 55 76 97 119

RPM @ shift

3912 5146 5507 5692


a bit better

Last edited by welshpug; 11-03-2009 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 12-03-2009, 05:12 AM   #5
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The 2.92:1 first is much better, which is why I point people towards the Mi16 box rather than the 1.6 GTI.
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Old 15-03-2009, 12:27 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy309 View Post
The 2.92:1 first is much better, which is why I point people towards the Mi16 box rather than the 1.6 GTI.
your thoughts on a 1,9 BE3 gearset with 4:4 cwp from mi16?
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:51 AM   #7
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ahhh right, wonder if I can stick the Mi first in the BE4r casing with the rest of the 1.6 gti cluster?

time to learn gearboxes I think
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Old 12-03-2009, 05:45 PM   #8
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1st, reverse and second are machined onto the primary shaft, so they go together. But you can add the 3rd/4th/5th, as long as you don't try to put the BE3 3/4/5th on the BE4 secondary shaft.
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Old 13-12-2009, 12:41 PM   #9
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I have a BE4J 20DL67 box to have a fiddle with, gear ratios in it are very close to standard VTS ones so ok for a road car but not ideal for rally or race use, the 90 hp one is fairly good, but the 100 hp one has a taller 3/4 at 1.148 and 0.82 compared to 1.28 and 0.951. DOH

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy309 View Post
1st, reverse and second are machined onto the primary shaft, so they go together. But you can add the 3rd/4th/5th, as long as you don't try to put the BE3 3/4/5th on the BE4 secondary shaft.

so I can use the BE3 primary shaft to get a decent 1/2nd, and a BE4 secondary shaft that I'd have to find a decent 3/4 and 5th.

isn't it the spline under 3/4 and the bush for 5th that differs?

Last edited by welshpug; 13-12-2009 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:32 PM   #10
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954cc 205s
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Old 14-03-2009, 11:49 PM   #11
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Cheers sandy, do all 954cc 4 speed 205's have them?


Jeff
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Old 15-03-2009, 05:51 AM   #12
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Even better for competition use. The 3rd/4th/5th being closer than the Mi16 ones. It means sourcing another box and more stripping/assembly though obviously. I was partly alluding to that fact that many 205 owners rave about the 1.6 GTI ratios, when the Mi16 ones are arguably better,mostly because of the 1st-2nd drop.

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Cheers sandy, do all 954cc 4 speed 205's have them?
Pretty much as far as I know.
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Old 15-03-2009, 10:33 AM   #13
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Cheers sandy, has anyone got a MA4 with a 4.29 final drive, or maybe just the crown wheel and pinion please????
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Old 15-04-2009, 09:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy309 View Post
Even better for competition use. The 3rd/4th/5th being closer than the Mi16 ones. It means sourcing another box and more stripping/assembly though obviously. I was partly alluding to that fact that many 205 owners rave about the 1.6 GTI ratios, when the Mi16 ones are arguably better,mostly because of the 1st-2nd drop.



Pretty much as far as I know.
had a play in a 205 rally car with that exact combination in it, only a standard engine but had the right suspension bits and a diff up front, went very well around llandow.



also got my hands on a 205 Roland Garros box that's in bits, a 20CA43, Might bung the final drive into my brother's saxo gearbox if the rest of the box is the same.

f/d 14x60 4.285

1st 12x41 3.41 4.5mph/1k
2nd 20x39 1.95 7.8 mph/1k 3889 RPM @ gearshift (6800)
3rd 28x38 1.35 11.3 mph/1k 4708 RPM @ gearshift
4th 37x39 1.05 14.6 mph/1k 5289 RPM @ gearshift
5th 41x35 0.85 18.0 mph/1k 5505 RPM @ gearshift


fair drop from 1st to 2nd, but seeing as they're al the same and all machined onto the primary shaft there's sod all I can do apart from an aftermarket gearset, or a BE gearbox....
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Old 16-04-2009, 04:22 AM   #15
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RG box is the same as XS.
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Old 26-07-2009, 11:48 AM   #16
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so is there a be gear box or a bellhousing to mount one to a standared tu engine, or could you build the internals in to an ma box?
Thanks chris

Last edited by chrisc; 30-07-2009 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 14-12-2009, 05:35 AM   #17
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That's it. The secondary shaft from 3rd-5th is different on BE4.
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Old 14-12-2009, 09:01 AM   #18
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thanks
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:39 PM   #19
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I've been reading this thread with the outer most precision. I'm currently building a rally car, and its probably going to have approx 150 BHP.. The last year, i've rebuilded about 6 MA5 transmission, so even when i put in a rebuilded and strengtend MA5 type, i am sure that i will kill it over and over again.
So i've been reading up on BE conversion, cause i am sure i need the strength. if the conversion is do-able, i am thinking of putting one in my 106 Turbo as well.

But now, i've searched, but i cannot find where they put in a FD of 4.9 or even 5.1.. Cause i want the highest FD possible. I found out that de 20DM13 box has the 4.9 i am looking for.. But i cant find any..Now i've read that some vans Non turbo Diesel even have 5.1's..
Can anyone tell me for sure where i can find one of those, of in which car they can be found?

The closest ratio and the highest FD is what i am looking for

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Old 02-01-2010, 10:01 AM   #20
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I very much doubt you'd want a 5.1 Final drive ratio with a turbo engine, you would just sit there spinning the wheels all the time!

The larger the number the shorter the gear, most likely something like a 3.9 would be more suitable.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:12 AM   #21
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Thats why it says, put in my 106 Turbo as wel

The Rally car i am Currently building wil be a TU5J4 NA engine with 280 kentcams, Balanced crank, modified head, custom exhaust and a Megasquirt. For this car i want the highest Finaldrive and close ratio gears.

My other 106 has a TU5JP4 engine with different cams, GT28R Turbo, Custom Exhaust, 440cc injectors, Decompression kit etc etc. Looking for a safe 250 BHP. So in this car i will not be putting anything higher then 3.9 FD, maybe even lower. But this car will have to wait its turn.. Rally car has the priority and needs to be finished around feb/mar.
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:08 PM   #22
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ahhhhh!! I understand now

Its quite difficult to find exactly the final drive you want, its often best to get the casing and driveshaft bearing carrier, then find internals from elsewhere if possible.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:45 PM   #23
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I already bought a Berlingo HDI gearbox with the TU belhousing. The Internals are the least of my problems. I am an Automatic Transmission Rebuild Specialist, and we have some contacts with company's who also have Manual gearbox spare parts or Core transmissions.
But the Final drive could be a problem.

Good news is that i finished my Homemade Baffled Sump today
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:03 PM   #24
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does the DV4 box fit the Tu engine? is there a hole for the TDC sensor?
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:34 AM   #25
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Dont know. Got a picture of the Berlingo BE4 gearbox, and the starter is in the right location, and its with a Cable,

I've been told these bellhousings can be used on the TU5 Engine. The TDC sensor isnt a problem for me. I coul either machine it in the bellhouse and weld the proper pieces to it, of put a different sensor in a different place.. I can input the angle in wich the sensor is located in the Megasquirt, so that wont be a problem.Only takes times. But i can have the gearbox for 50 euro. So i'll be taking that one anyway. I can use it for spare parts if neccesary.

I've been looking on Peugeot/Citroen Servicebox, and the 20DM13 box is the box we want for the final Drive. And is used on the Tu5 Engine. But nowwhere to be found. The 20DM12 on the other hand is.. But what i can see, is that it uses a Hydraulic Clutch, intead of the Cable. So dont know if that would be interchangeble, without welding the bracket pint etc from the original gearbox.

I'll keep you posted.
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:25 PM   #26
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Got my hands on a 20dm12 gearbox.. Expecting it next week. So i will keep you posted.

Did on the otherhand took appart a PG1 transmission from a lotus this week, looks allot like a BE gearbox..
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Old 21-01-2010, 08:11 PM   #27
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hi gyus.can u tell me pls who can made shorter final drive ratio for pug 106 rallye S1? i would like 5 and more fdr,thanks for info
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Old 24-03-2010, 09:22 PM   #28
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Does the 106 Quicksilver model have the same ratios as a 1.4 XSi?
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Old 24-03-2010, 09:47 PM   #29
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Don't think so. I had a Quiksilver for a bit and the ratios were as long as anything, hence really good fuel economy!
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Old 24-03-2010, 11:49 PM   #30
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so probably non-sport?

i have heard mention they were quite restricted on the inlet so that may explain the economy, will find out soo enough though, friend of mine is picking up a Quicksilver gearbox for 15 on Monday.
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Old 25-03-2010, 08:11 AM   #31
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3.77 FDR and standard gear ratios AFAIK.
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Old 25-03-2010, 10:09 AM   #32
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doh, not so good to go on a gti then
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Old 26-03-2010, 07:18 AM   #33
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Not really.
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Old 16-05-2010, 08:56 PM   #34
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i found gearbox from citroen c4 1,6 16v 80kw.there is bigger gearbox as pug 106 rallye s1 but got shorter final drive ratio.do somebody know if is possible put the fdr from citroen c4 to s1 rallye gearbox in? want buy one broken gearbox for good money but dont know if its the same diameter of differencial wheel.small one diff wheel got 13 tooths as s1 rally but the big one got 61 not 59 as 106 rallye.fdr 4,7
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Old 14-06-2010, 05:02 PM   #35
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AX GT ratios, is it a 4.06? the gti is 3.94 I think?
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Old 14-06-2010, 05:42 PM   #36
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CB45 ? ,,,can anyone shed light on what its from ,diff ratio etc ?

cheers Garry
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Old 14-06-2010, 05:53 PM   #37
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Looks like a diesel box.

Where on the box is the code written? I've got one here but the only lettering I can see on it doesn't conform to the pattern.
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Old 19-09-2010, 04:08 PM   #38
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Partner/S2 Rallye gearbox

Hi everyone, I have a question?
I found a Partner 1.4 box 13/59
1 - 3,41 - 12x41
2 - 1,76 - 21x38
3 - 1,32 - ?
4 - 0,99 - ?
5 - 0,77 - ?x43

and also have S2 Rallye box 16/65
1 - 3,41 - 12x41
2 - 1,95 - 20x39
3 - 1,35 - 28x38
4 - 1,05 - 37x39
5 - 0,85 - ?x41

What to do for TU5J2 engine running on track day's and hill climb's.
1.Make a conversion with 1-4 gear's from S2 rallye and 13/59 diff with 5-th gear from partner ?
2. Stay with partner box but what about the drop between 1-st and 2-nd gear?
3. Take only partner's diff 13/59 and put it in to S2 rallye box?(Like S1 box)
Any help
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:12 PM   #39
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how wud i know if my s2 rallye has got a different box? as all my friends reckon it has got a different box as the other night wen i opened it up we was doing a 131 in 4th at just over 7000rpm and sum one i know with a rallye dnt do no where near as much in 4th gear yet im told the car is standard!
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:00 AM   #40
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Probably the speedo overreading and/or not standard box. Check the first page of this topic. Sandy posted the speeds in different gears.
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Old 26-10-2011, 12:15 AM   #41
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quick question, does anybody what my top speeds in each gear will be like if i put a 1.3 rallye CWP into a GTi box? Or can someone give me the formulas to do it and ill do it myself!
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Old 26-10-2011, 06:13 AM   #42
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itll be the same as a rallye box
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Old 26-10-2011, 10:39 AM   #43
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Quote:
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itll be the same as a rallye box
Cool thanks! Do you think that fd is a bit short for a
Gti with a standard rev limit and 195 45 15s? Kind of unsure about it!
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Old 26-10-2011, 11:11 AM   #44
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Depends what you're doing with it - competition car, weekend fast road/track toy or everyday driver?

Personally I'd go for a slightly taller FD on an everyday car, but as a 2nd the S1 FD is brill.
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Old 26-10-2011, 11:24 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harv View Post
Depends what you're doing with it - competition car, weekend fast road/track toy or everyday driver?

Personally I'd go for a slightly taller FD on an everyday car, but as a 2nd the S1 FD is brill.
It will be for track/ drag and a blast on the road every now and then!
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:32 PM   #46
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read this with great interest and got abit confused

so the BE box's have 1st and 2nd machined as one piece onto the crank driven shaft??
presumably MA box's have removable gears from shafts for quafe to do gearkits?



have this lying round and i'm hoping to change it to a clutch type/friction plate lsd any ideas where i can get the parts i.e. the friction plates, also does the diff casing need changing?
thanks chris

thanks for replys i have since had an lsd in my hand now and know of the casing change and crucifixes to hold the bevelled gears etc
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Old 25-05-2013, 01:28 PM   #47
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Maybe this is the right thread to ask my question: Is it possible to change the FDR to 4.92 in an S1 Rally MA gearbox? Which car's gearbox shall I seek for? The gearbox code would be the best information. Thanks!
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Old 07-04-2016, 06:08 PM   #48
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Wondering if anyone can help me out
I have an MA gripper straight cut dog box
Finally got my car running, took it for a drive and it took all the teeth off 4th gear, these teeth have gone round the box damaging the pinion and final drive. The gearbox was previously in an 8v turbo and I'm guessing it was abused.
After a quick call to Dave Mac we found out it is repairable at a fairly reasonable cost but we also found out that the box has a 2.9:1 final drive which is apparently really long.
I was wondering if anyone know what final drive ratio I should be looking at?
The car revs to 8500, and will be almost entirely on circuits like, cadwell, brands, Donnington, Bedford (though I'm not too fussed about the gearing being a little short for the long straight at Bedford)
I don't seem to be able to find any info on the individual gear ratios if anyone knows them or can point me in the right direction?

Cheers
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Old 07-04-2016, 06:52 PM   #49
Dave P
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FD's sizes are very limited, I have a 3.9 FD on my gripper box. Your FD must be a one off.
Maybe see if gripper will do a one off FD to suit your needs, go on a gear ratio calculator and sus out what you need.
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Old 07-04-2016, 07:50 PM   #50
Beaniemoo
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Yes it was a custom made one apparently!
They said the would make me a final drive, but all of this is very new to me and I really don't know.
What do I need, to use these calculators? I don't know the gear ratios of my gripper gears
Thinking of something like a 130mph top end

Last edited by Beaniemoo; 07-04-2016 at 07:54 PM.
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