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Problems, Servicing & Repairs Information and topics about technical problems, servicing and repairs to the Rallye

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Old 01-09-2004, 08:34 AM   #1
Tideee
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Question What Oil is everybody using ?????

..........as the title says - what oil is everybody using in both engine and gearbox ???

The recommended lubes are either Esso or Total, but these are not so easy to get hold of. It is oil change time for my S2 and was just wondering what everybody else uses
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Old 01-09-2004, 09:23 AM   #2
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Yes it's not very easy to find stuff like this as it seems that the search facility doesn't allow you to look for three (or even four) letter words? A nice search for 'best oil' would have unveiled this one, but alas...

Is there any chance this can be changed mods? words like cam, oil, ecu, map, etc are quite useful on a car forum? And, it may go some way to reduce repeated questions.


here is your (or at least an) answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon M
See the old post "Is Castrol 10w60 the best oil to use".

It's in Problems Servicing & Repairs. The whole oil debate is covered there.

http://www.106rallye.co.uk/newforum/...read.php?t=169

The final outcome of which oil to use was either Silkolene Pro S 5w40 or 10w50 OR Redline with a similar viscosity. These are both FULLY synthetic oils using PAO and Esther base stocks rather than highly modified mineral base stock oils which are altered sufficiently to be 'called' synthetic although, strictly speaking, they are not.

Happy reading.
 
Old 01-09-2004, 09:00 PM   #3
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I'm using millers 10-40w. Excellent stuff if you can find it. As for gearbox, just whatever I can get hold of really! You can get Total oils from GSF.
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Old 09-09-2004, 05:25 PM   #4
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Engine oil's been covered by the thread above I'd hope. Stick with fully synthetic PAO/Ester based oils. Minimum 5w or 10w, max 50, don't go 60 it causes too much drag.

Gearbox wise you'll want one litre canisters of Castrol Syntrax 75w80 for road use.

The standard viscosity recommended is 75w80. On the back of the Castrol cannister it actually says "recommended for Peugeot/Citroen high pressure transmissions" I think.

Castrol do make a 75w90 Semi Synthetic Syntrax as well. That's the viscosity I use in the Rallye rally car but not the brand (that's Elf Motor Sport Lubricants and the brand the guys that prep the car use).

Be careful messing around with different viscosities of oil in the gear box as it's a high pressure unit. Peugeot recommend 75w base stick to that. Top end temperature-wise, 90 should be fine as well as 80 but 80 simply won't give the same protection against the internal temperatures if you're giving it some stick.

Remember 75w80 is recommended for Granny to go to the shops with, so the gear change is smooth from the minute she gets in it and starts the engine.

75w90 will remain more stable at higher temperatures and shouldn't carbonise as fast but the gearchange may appear to be a bit stiffer until warm. Simply go easy on the gearbox for the first 10 minutes.

The 80 or 90 signifies the temp the oil begins to loose viscosity (slipperyness). 75w is the viscosity when cold (flow speed measured at 0C) and it's also the viscosity the oil remains at up until the 80 or 90 temp level is reached; it then breaks down.

Sticking to the 75w base means the oil is not too 'thin' or too 'thick' and it remains stable until the 80 temp range. 80w as a base would be much thicker at 0C and will remain at that thickness until it breaks down.

80w base will put much more strain on the 'box as the gears will be turning in a thicker oil (try running in water then try running in treacle, it's a bit like that).

W= Winter.

Cheers
Gordon.
 
Old 09-09-2004, 06:02 PM   #5
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I use silkolene fully synth 5w-40 and peugeots own (think its actually total or valvolene) 75w-80.
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Old 14-09-2004, 10:47 AM   #6
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10W40 Castrol, NOT MAGNASHITE its produces too much oil mist. and gumms stuff up.
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Old 14-09-2004, 05:06 PM   #7
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aint much difference between the top oils...just go for synthetic oil from castrol, mobil, valovilne and you cant go wrong!

I use mobil 1 5-40 every 6K for engine and Valvoline Peugeot/citroen 70-90 gearbox oil
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Old 14-09-2004, 05:38 PM   #8
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i use Millers 10-40w Semi-Synth, change oil every 5k. Oil comes out as clean as it goes in
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Old 14-09-2004, 05:45 PM   #9
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dont use fully synthetic it too thin

i use Shell Helix Plus and its great stuff 10w 40
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Old 14-09-2004, 05:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
dont use fully synthetic it too thin

i use Shell Helix Plus and its great stuff 10w 40
too thin?? only when cold, when hot is the same viscocity (thickness) as other oils.
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Old 14-09-2004, 08:03 PM   #11
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does the thinner stuff heat up quicker???
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Old 14-09-2004, 09:52 PM   #12
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I use the stuff we supply at work, which i believe is shell helix fully synthetic.
And its free too..........bonus

I love perks of the trade.
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Old 14-09-2004, 10:45 PM   #13
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I am on 5W40 Halfords (esso) fully synth.

Burns a wee bit but OK.
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Old 15-09-2004, 08:38 AM   #14
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Guys, don't start this one again.

Mark, there is a difference in fully synthetic oils, some fully-synth oils are based on mineral oil but modified enough to be called fully synthetic e.g. Castrol & Mobil. Remember the big court case in the US we all discussed the last time? Oil firms allowed to call oils fully synth when, strictly speaking, they weren't because they were based on mineral oil stocks.

The best oils are those based on PAO and Ester base stocks (oil types used in aviation). Silkolene, Redline, Motul and I think Valvoline are all PAO/Ester based.

I agree with the Magnashite comment from Paul.

Tom, fully synthetic is not too 'thin', whether the oil is made from olives or crude oil the 'thickness' or 'thinness' is the viscosity rating not whether its mineral, semi-synthetic or fully synthetic. True, fully synthetic oils are the one's that can be 0w (very thin) but you can also get 15w fully synthetic oils which are much 'thicker' but still fully synth.

Peugeot recommend 5w40 or 10w40 for the S1 Rallye and actually semi-synth. As long as the viscosity rating remains the same whether its fully, semi synth or mineral doesn't matter. Adjusting to outside ambient operating temp of course (don't use 0w30 in 50C temps in Greece or 15w50 in Finland). Naturally fully synthetic is much better than mineral as it doesn't carbonise at low temp, it's got much better lubricating propertes etc.

Paul, great perks.

All the oil techinical issues, viscosity, esters, film-sheer strength, hydrodynamic lubrication, carbonisation etc. are all discussed on this thread.

Have a read:

http://www.106rallye.co.uk/newforum/...read.php?t=169

Cheers.
 
Old 15-09-2004, 10:59 AM   #15
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is this the redline you speak of?


you can buy it here

the silcolene:


you can get it here

the motul?


from here

and the valvoline:


couldn't find anywhere online that you can get it.

none of them a cheap mind.
 
Old 16-09-2004, 10:01 AM   #16
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That's EXACTLY the stuff Thomas, you got them all, great bit of research.

I DON'T know if the Valvoline is PAO/Ester based though. Never done any research into Valvoline. All the others are PAO/Ester based though. Just done a bit of research and Valvoline ISN'T PAO/ESTER based. What I have found though is that Mobil 1 IS PAO based BUT NOT Ester based.

The difference between PAO and Ester is that Ester's have the edge on PAO oils as they are bi-polar (magnetic properties meaning cling to the metal). PAO's are not bi-polar so don't quite have the properties to make them the best of the best.

So Silkolene is STILL the champion as it were!

Only thing I'd say is try to buy the Silkolene from X-Cite as they are the official UK distributors and really nice people when you phone them, that day dispatch (next day delivery) if you get to them before noon and a friendly voice on the end of the phone. They've just popped two litres of the Silktran SYN 5 75w90 into the post for the new gearbox on the rally car.

On doing the Valvoline research I came across this thread on Piston Heads forum. Some guy called Guy, works for an oil company and has a 'close' relationship with the TOP chemist at Silkolene. Makes good reading.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...3&h=0&t=121715

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...23316&f=66&h=0

The one above is a huge post on Synthetics VS Mineral and the differences between them.

Guy is offering advise and this is the copy of the post I've posted: I'll let you know the outcome and we can put this debate to rest; FINALLY!

Guy you're a legend, quality info transfer here.

Make: Peugeot
Model: 106 Rallye
Year: 1995
Engine size and type: 1294cc 8v Peugeot TU
Any significant modifications: None
Brand and viscosity currently used: Either Silkolene Pro S 5w40 or Pro S 10w50

In the road car I've been swapping between the two depending on winter or summer (5w in winter). The car isn't driven much but when it is it's driven hard. The little engine revs to 7000rpm and squeezes just over 100bhp out of 1294cc.

I also have exactly the same car used as a rally car, again with no engine mods as the class I run in doesn't allow it.

At one stage I did use the Castrol 10w60 in the road car thinking it would give better high temperature protection but I now realise that the 60 is too 'heavy' an oil and can cause too much drag (I read the Silkolene website and they recommended not using 60 weight oils and only 50 tops).

The rally car has got Pro S 10w50 in it and I was thinking of switching to the Pro S 5w40 for winter events. Clearly the rally car gets hammered from the word go (once the oil is warm of course).

I'm a big fan of Silkolene having done lots of research on POA/Ester based oils and they along with Redline or Motul would be the only oils I'd consider using. Forget Castrol, Shell, Duckhams, etc.

I also thought Mobil 1 was a hydrocracked mineral. Didn't realise it contained PAO's.

Can you advise on the best viscosity rating to be used in both the road and rally car please?

I've been contributing to a similar ongoing debate on the 106 Rallye forum and we've all narrowed it down to the best oils to use being only PAO/Ester based but there is still some discussion over which viscosity. The Peugeot handbook actually recommends either a semi-synth or fully synth. Semi-synth 10w40 or fully-synth 5w40. Either Total or Esso.

Would be great to know your opinions or those of the guru at Silkolene regarding the most suitable oil.

The Sliktran Syn 5 75w90 is excellent for the gearbox as well. Peugeot state 75w80 but the rally car 'box needs the 90 high temp protection.

Cheers
 
Old 16-09-2004, 11:12 AM   #17
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I use Rock oil synthisis 2 racing two-stroke oil in my two-stroke race and rally engines and this is top stuff, rock oil also do 4 stroke fully synth oil, but i think there website is off-line, so i cannot get any more info, does anybody know if their 4 stroke synthetic is mineral or esther based?
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Old 16-09-2004, 11:35 AM   #18
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Gordon,
Do you have the contact details for that X-Cite place?
 
Old 16-09-2004, 12:20 PM   #19
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X-Cite

Phone - 0870 9914450
Outside of the UK +44 870 9914450

To buy online:

http://www.710supplies.com/

They also sell Green Cotton air fliters at 710 as well. The 710 site is the online arm of X-cite/Silkolene UK

Another place is:

http://www.opieoils.co.uk

They are big oil distributers in Cornwall but ship anywhere in the country. On the home page go to the Contact Us section, then scroll down to Quotation, then click Oil/Lubricant Type. The drop down list is HUGE. Including Silkolene.

This Opieoils is where Guy, the fella on the Piston Heads forum works, I'm making a guess but his user name is opieoilman!

Cheers
 
Old 16-09-2004, 12:47 PM   #20
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OK OK WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!

This is the post back from Guy and funnily enough a copy of an email from probably one of THE QUICKEST privateer rally drivers in the UK to the Head Chemist at Silkolene. If anyone out there (bar affordability reasons) isn't using Silkolene after this....well, have a long hard think about yourself.

GordonM

There is not much I can add to that, you have done your homework and the Silkolene in my opinion is the best.

I personally would use the 5w-40 for all year round in both cars and it is also a great competition oil, the oil is thermally stable enough for anyhting the 106 can throw at it.

This will be of interst to you though.

It is a letter from a well know rally competitor, though I have removed the name, to the Guru at Silkolene.

Thicker is not always better, it’s the “shear stability” of the oil that’s even more important than the viscosity when the engine is stressed over long periods


From: xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 07 May 2004 16:16
To: Rowland, John
Subject: Peugeot Cosworth - result!

John

Just a note to let you know I've heard from xxxxxxx - the rally driver with
the 300+bhp Peugeot-ice-racer-bodied hybrid with the normally asthmatic
Cosworth in the back.

Prior to you taking over, he used to have to strip the engine after every event (normally 45 miles, he couldn't get it to last for a National event of 70-80 miles) and change the big end bearings every time. He'd been everywhere and tried everything (including Halfords!), and couldn't solve his problem.

First off, he was really surprised when you asked to look at the bearings, as
no-one had ever asked! He was equally surprised by your recommendation to go thinner, and also, I have to say, worried. He equated 'thickness' with 'better protection'. I eventually persuaded him to try Pro S 5w/40, as you suggested, but I couldn't get him down to the 0w/20.

He called me to say he'd stripped the engine this week, after it's FOURTH event (approx 200 competitive miles!), and there isn't a mark on it. He is utterly delighted, and asked me to pass on his thanks for all your help and expertise.

I'd also like to add my thanks to you. He is extremely influential in competition circles, and is now going to tell the world and his wife what, and
who, sorted this problem.

Once again, many thanks
Regards
xxxxxxxx

Cheers

Guy.

And my reply FYI:

Excellent Guy, thanks a lot.

Cheers for the quote as well. That'll be the very well known Herefordshire potato farmer called **** ****** then!

The 306 Cosworth is an awesome machine, did you ever see the AlfaFerrari he had before the 306 Cosworth? Full on is all I can say.

Until 2000 it was a 306 with a Metro 6R4 engine but now runs a 2.5 litre, 24 valve, V6 Cosworth DFV engine originally from an Opel German Touring Car which emits THAT absolutely awesome sound.

He's bloody quick in the forests as well. Beats all the WRC saddled boys as well. He was leading the Woodpecker Stages in Ludlow, Shrops a couple of weekends ago by 5-10 seconds until a diff went. Well ahead of a '00 spec Focus WRC, similar Accent WRC and Subaru.

If you're into you national/local rallying take a look at www.90right.com/index.php

As they say "tweaking the handbrake on British rallying". Excellent rally reports and fantastic photos. Great bunch of lads.

Cheers
 
Old 16-09-2004, 12:51 PM   #21
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Oil change coming up guess what I will be buying
 
Old 16-09-2004, 08:37 PM   #22
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sounds a bit biased towards Silkolene to me...

I'm sure if you asked a top chemist from Shell, Esso, Mobil, etc, etc they would have pretty convincing and informative arguments for their oils as well.

reserve judgement on this one as needs more info from all oil companies before you can make a well informed unbiased opinion..

at the end of the day we are talking about a relatively simple Peugeot 1.3/1.6 engine so as long as you use the correct rated oil from a leading brand you aint gonna have any probs....

more important than the actual oil is how often you change it!!
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Old 16-09-2004, 08:47 PM   #23
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ok, so am i making a huge mistake by running castrol GTX Magnatex? is silkolene the way forward, not really fussed about all singing all dancing oil, just want to make sure my baby is as protected as possible against my heavy right foot!
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Old 17-09-2004, 10:01 AM   #24
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Mark, I can understand your hesitance to endorse a particular brand.

Throughout the whole of the oil debate I have tried to remain as unbiased and balanced in my fact finding and provision of opinions regarding the 'brand' of oil to use and I have purely focused on the oil's chemical and molecular properties giving 'our' engines the best and healthiest life as possible.

Throughout this 'research' we have all learnt a huge amount about the strangest and quite possibly a rather boring topic; personal opinions have been altered through information exchange, logic and peoples personal experiences. Because now it may appear that a brand of oil is superior to others this is only due to learning about the chemical properties and molecular properties of oil not due to any 'marketing'.

What is interesting is that firms such as Redline, Silkolene and others that use Esters and PAO's are totally happy to have their oils tested and discuss the 'ingredients' openly. Major oils firms that use mineral base stocks just fudge their way though claiming everything is top quality, propriety intellectual property and we could never release the ingredients etc. This is rather strange as a small and independent oil company has a lot more to loose to a multi-national firm by revealing their secret recipe. The big oil firms are also rather set in their ways and due to economic issues do not want to incur the expense of developing new bespoke lubricants when they've been touting 'fully synthetics' for years based on mineral oils. Easy money for them.

Quite simply put, in my opinion and that of many others, true Ester or PAO synthetics are superior to mineral oil based fully synthetics. I cannot see how a chemist from an oil company that still uses Hydro-cracked mineral oils as the base stock is able to provide an argument that a mineral oil with various polluting additives is as 'effective' as a substance built at the molecular level molecule by molecule. If you feel that a particular brand offers your engine superior lubricating properties and it's derived from mineral oils go ahead and keep using it, it's a free market.

Aviation engines have to operate at sub 80C and above 500C temperatures. Since the 40's or 50's esters and PAO's have been used over mineral oils in these engines and provide maximum protection and operating efficiency to ensure you and I don't drop out the sky on our jolly to Torremolinos.

I still believe that the firms that manufacture Ester based oils and their products will provide superior protection for your engine whether it be the Opel touring car engine of the 306 ice racer hybrid of the rally driver mentioned or our 1.3 and 1.6 Peugeots.

Below is further discussion on the Synth vs. Mineral debate, should you wish to read any more. I would advise it.

I would be highly interested in hearing from anyone that can put forward a strong argument to demonstrate hydro cracked mineral oils provide better lubrication than Ester and PAO synthetics.

Cheers

"more important than the actual oil is how often you change it!!" To a certain extent yes but why change your oil every 1000 miles when you don't need to. Poor quality oils actually change viscosity during their life. You can put 15w50 in the engine and after a few thousand miles it can display the properties of a 10w30!

Shorty "am i making a huge mistake by running castrol GTX Magnatec?" Yes. "is silkolene the way forward" Yes, BUT it doesn't have to be, you can buy any Ester or PAO based oil from Redline or Motul or Silkolene just make sure it's a high quality Ester or PAO oil of the correct viscosity. To me Silkolene 'appears' to be the best and until anyone can provide a logical and clear argument to say otherwise the Silkolene Pro S 5w40 is THE oil for me.

SYNTHETICS vs MINERALS

Oil is the lifeblood of your vehicle's engine. For decades conventional petroleum oils have been providing adequate protection for all of our vehicles.

The key word here is adequate. Petroleum oils, for the most part, have done an adequate job of protecting our engines from break down. If you change it often enough, you can be relatively sure that your car will last 100,000 to 150,000 miles without a serious engine problem - maybe even longer.

The real question is, why settle for adequate when something better has been available for about 30 years?

Today's engines are built for better performance, and, although petroleum oils are designed for better protection and performance today than they were 10 or 20 years ago, there is only so much that can be done. Today's engines need high performance lubricants, and the only true ones available are synthetics.

Conventional petroleum oils are insufficient for use in today's vehicles primarily because they are manufactured from a refined substance, contain paraffins (wax), sulfur, nitrogen, oxygen, water, salts and certain metals. All of these contaminants must be refined out of the basestock in order for it to be useful for use within a lubricant.

Unfortunately, no refining process is perfect. Impurities will always remain when any refining process is done. It simply isn't economical to continue to refine the oil again and again to remove more impurities. If this was done, petroleum oils would cost as much as synthetic oils do.

There are many components of petroleum oil basestocks which are completely unnecessary for protecting your engine. They do absolutely nothing to enhance the lubrication properties of the oil. In fact, most of these contaminants are actually harmful to your oil and your engine.

Some of the chemicals in conventional petroleum lubricants break down at temperatures well within the normal operating temperature range of your engine. Others are prone to break down in these relatively mild temperatures only if oxygen is present. But, this is invariably the case anyway, especially since oxygen is one of the contaminants within petroleum basestocks.

These thermally and oxidatively unstable contaminants do absolutely nothing to aid in the lubrication process. They are only present in conventional petroleum oils because removing them would be impossible or excessively expensive.

When thermal or oxidative break down of petroleum oil occurs, it leaves engine components coated with varnish, deposits and sludge. In addition, the lubricant which is left is thick, hard to pump and maintains little heat transfer ability.

In addition, petroleum oils contain paraffins which cause dramatic oil thickening in cold temperatures. Even with the addition of pour point depressant additives, most petroleum oils will begin to thicken at temperatures 10 to 40 degrees warmer than synthetic oils.

As a result, petroleum lubricants will not readily circulate through your engine's oil system during cold weather. This may leave engine parts unprotected for minutes after startup. Obviously, significant wear can occur during this time frame.

Even when all conditions are perfect for conventional oils to do their job, they fall far short of synthetic oils. Part of the problem is that (because of their refined nature) petroleum oils are composed of molecules which vary greatly in size. As the oil flows through your vehicle's lubrication system, the small, light molecules tend to flow in the center of the oil stream while the large, heavy ones adhere to metal surfaces where they create a barrier against heat movement from the component to the oil stream. In effect, the large, heavy molecules work like a blanket around hot components.

There is also another effect of the non-uniformity of petroleum oil molecules which reduces their effectiveness. Uniformly smooth molecules slip over one another with relative ease. This is not the case with molecules of differing size.
Theoretically, it might be somewhat similar to putting one layer of marbles on top of another (if this could easily be done). If the marbles were all of the same size, they would move over one another fairly easily. However, if they were all of differing sizes, the result would be much less efficient.

In the case of petroleum oils this inefficiency leads, ironically, to added friction in the system (the very thing that lubricants are supposed to reduce). Hence, petroleum oils are only marginally capable of controlling heat in your engine. Considering that motor oil does nearly 50% of the cooling of your engine, that's not a good thing. But,

This being said, petroleum oils are “adequate” for the purpose of protecting your engine, if you don't mind a shorter vehicle lifespan, inconvenient oil changes, or decreased engine performance. Under normal circumstances, most vehicles lubricated with petroleum oil should run satisfactorily for 100,000 to 150,000 miles without serious incidence.

If you like the hassle of changing your oil regularly, and you are only looking for marginal performance for the next 100,000 miles or so, petroleum oils are definitely the way to go.

Assuming that you don't relish the idea of changing your oil every 2,000 miles or and are looking to keep your “pride and joy” in tip-top condition then these are the main areas where synthetic oils surpass their petroleum counterparts.

Oil drains can be extended
Vehicle life can be extended
Costly repairs can be reduced
Fuel mileage can be improved
Performance can be improved

Synthetic basestock molecules are pure and of uniform size. This is because synthetic basestocks are designed from the ground up with the sole purpose of protecting your engine. Nothing is added if it does not significantly contribute to the lubricating ability of the oil. In addition, in top-quality synthetics, no component is added which might be contaminated with any substance that might lessen the lubricating qualities of the oil. In other words, manufacturers of these premium synthetics implement very strict quality control measures to insure no contamination.

Not only that, synthetic basestocks are designed so that the molecules are of uniform size and weight. In addition, synthetic basestock molecules are short-chain molecules which are much more stable than the long-chain molecules that petroleum basestocks are made of. This significantly adds to the lubricating qualities and stability of the oil.

EXTENDED OIL DRAINS
Stable Basestocks
Synthetic oils are designed from pure, uniform synthetic basestocks, they contain no contaminants or unstable molecules which are prone to thermal and oxidative break down. Moreover, because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic lubricants operate with less internal and external friction than petroleum oils which have the non-uniform molecular structure. The result is better heat control, and less heat means less stress to the lubricant.

Higher Percentage of Basestock
Synthetic oils contain a higher percentage of lubricant basestock than petroleum oils do. This is because multi-viscosity oils need a great deal of pour point depressant and viscosity modifying additives in order to be sold as multi-viscosity oils. Synthetic oils, require very little in the way of pour point depressants and viscosity modifiers. Therefore, synthetic oils can contain a higher percentage of basestock, which actually does most of the lubricating anyway. More basestock leads to longer motor oil life.

Additives Used Up More Slowly
Petroleum basestocks are much more prone to oxidation than synthetic oils, oxidation inhibitors are needed in greater supply and are used up very quickly. Synthetic oils do oxidize, but at a much slower rate therefore, oxidation inhibiting additives are used up much more slowly. Synthetic oils provide for better ring seal than petroleum oils do. This minimizes blow-by and reduces contamination by combustion by-products. As a result, corrosion inhibiting additives have less work to do and will last much longer than within a petroleum oil.

Excellent Heat Tolerance
Synthetics are simply more tolerant to extreme heat than petroleum oils are. When heat builds up within an engine, petroleum oils quickly begin to burn off. They volatize. In other words, the lighter molecules within petroleum oils turn to gas and what's left are the large petroleum oil molecules that are harder to pump. Synthetics are resistant to this burn-off. They will tolerate much higher engine temperatures.

EXTENDED VEHICLE LIFE WITH FEWER REPAIRS
Heat Reduction
More often than not, vehicle life is determined by engine life. One of the major factors affecting engine life is component wear and/or failure, which is often the result of high temperature operation. The uniformly smooth molecular structure of synthetic oils gives them a much lower coefficient of friction (they slip more easily over one another causing less friction) than petroleum oils.

Less friction, of course, means less heat in the system. And, since heat is a major contributor to engine component wear and failure, synthetic oils significantly reduce these two detrimental effects. In addition, because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic oils do not cause the "blanket effect" which was mentioned earlier. Since each molecule in a synthetic oil is of uniform size, each is equally likely to touch a component surface at any given time, thus moving a certain amount of heat into the oil stream and away from the component. This makes synthetic oils far superior heat transfer agents than conventional petroleum oils.

Greater Film Strength
Petroleum motor oils have very low film strength in comparison to synthetics. The film strength of a lubricant refers to it's ability to maintain a film of lubricant between two objects when extreme pressure and heat are applied.

Synthetic oils will typically have a film strength of 500% to 1000% higher than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity. In fact, believe it or not, even though heavier weight oils typically have higher film strength than lighter weight oils, a 0w30 or 5w-40 weight synthetic oil will likely have higher film strength than a 15w40 or 20w50 petroleum oil. Thus, even with a lighter weight oil, you can still maintain proper lubricity and reduce the chance of metal to metal contact when using a synthetic oil. Of course, that means that you can use oils that provide far better fuel efficiency and cold weather protection without sacrificing engine protection under high temperature, high load conditions. Obviously, this is a big plus, because you can greatly reduce both cold temperature start-up wear and high temperature/high load engine wear using the same low viscosity oil.

Engine Deposit Reduction
In discussing some of the pitfalls of petroleum oil use, engine cleanliness is certainly an issue. Petroleum oils tend to leave sludge, varnish and deposits behind after thermal and oxidative break down. They're better than they used to be, but it still occurs.

Deposit build-up leads to a significant reduction in engine performance and engine life as well as increasing the number of costly repairs that are necessary. Since synthetic oils have far superior thermal and oxidative stability than petroleum oils, they leave engines virtually varnish, deposit and sludge-free.

Better Cold Temperature Fluidity
Synthetic oils and other lubricants do not contain paraffins or other waxes which dramatically thicken petroleum oils during cold weather. As a result, they tend to flow much better during cold temperature starts and begin lubricating an engine almost immediately. This leads to significant engine wear reduction, and, therefore, longer engine life and fewer costly repairs.

IMPROVED FUEL MILEAGE AND PERFORMANCE
As indicated earlier, synthetic oils, because of their uniform molecular structure, are tremendous friction reducers. Less friction leads to increased fuel economy and improved engine performance.
Any energy released from the combustion process that would normally be lost to friction can now be transferred directly to the wheels, providing movement.

Vehicle acceleration becomes swifter and more powerful while using less fuel in the process.

The uniform molecular structure of synthetic oils has another performance enhancing benefit as well. In a petroleum oil, lighter molecules tend to boil off easily, leaving behind much heavier molecules which are difficult to pump. Certainly, the engine loses more energy pumping these heavy molecules than if it were pumping lighter ones. Since synthetic oils have more uniform molecules, fewer of these molecules tend to boil off.

More importantly, when they do, the molecules which are left are of the same size and pumpability is not affected.
 
Old 17-09-2004, 10:50 AM   #25
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Hello every one,

My name is Guy Barnard. I work for an oil distributor based down in the south west. I have read with interest the posts on these forums regarding oil and there is some great information. Some of those posts do look a little familiar, as they were written by a chap called John Rowland who is the Chief R&D Chemist for Fuchs/Silkolene and has forgotten more about oil than we know, so well worth reading and ingesting.

I see that there is a lot of talk about Silkolene and I could not agree more, we supply five different brands of oil all based on quality and price and the Silkolene is heads above the rest.

GordenM has made some great posts and I feel I can help also with any questions or advice needed on oils, especially Silkolene as we are one of their main distributors and have access to technical data and even the man who designed the oil Mr John Rowland.

We are currently dealing with around 65 internet based clubs and forums providing oil advice and recomendations all the way down to supplying it a good price.

I hope you guy's will welcome me here as I feel I can be of assistance and also used to have a 106Rallye back in 1996 and was great fun as my first pocket rocket,until it got stolen..

Cheers

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Ps. SaxoSex I dont believe it, your here as well! I just did a google search on you and you appear on 11,300 pages WOW!
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Old 17-09-2004, 10:58 AM   #26
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where abouts is your distrobution centre in the south west??

Thanks.
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Old 17-09-2004, 11:26 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris.B
where abouts is your distrobution centre in the south west??

Thanks.
We are based down in Cornwall, however we deliver most of our oil over night by Amtrak.

Cheers

Guy.
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Old 17-09-2004, 12:56 PM   #28
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Good to see you've arrived Oilman, glad to have some of your support and advise for the Rallye people.

As you've seen I nicked some of your Mineral vs Synthetic post from before and posted above; I trust you're cool with this as I wanted to demonstrate a point. It was already hyperlinked but nothing beats a bit of black and white infront of you to read

The whole thing started way back (original links above in this topic) and I hope people can now see the two sides of the debate.

Cheers
 
Old 18-09-2004, 10:07 PM   #29
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OK love it, This is the sort of info I have been craving for ages but never managed to find it or missed the other posts.

Well I aint gonna change the 106 oil cos I aint no millionaire and the oil is fairly new. But the Pinto shall be getting a dose of fairly thick silkolene if I can get it. 20W50 typre properties recommended as very old engineering tolerances, but a brand new motor. I saw there was one close so just a case of saving up for the cam, paying my way through uni (again, if only a year), new tyres for the 106 and fix my shit back brakes by replacing the knacked load bias regulator.
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Old 18-09-2004, 11:48 PM   #30
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we need to colaborate all the factual information for an unbiased fact sheet on oils....

been on exxonmobil's website and there are loads of stats on there for their 0w-40 oil, pouring properties, thermal stability, etc, etc

still doubt if one oil ie: silkolene, is head and shoulders above the rest. Yeah read all the info, but as I said we need an expert view from another oil manufacturer really.

as an example, Exxon Mobil1 is used as a standard oil in loads of cars such as Porsche, Dodge, BMW, VW, Aston Martin, Mercedes AMG, WRC & F1. Now I know a lot of this is down to marketing, but if another oil was clearly better than the one they were using these manufacturers would be aware of it.

in any other industry, if a rival companies product was clearly better than your product, you would be aware of it and you would design a better product based on the rivals qualities.

generally I think we are talking about small differences in oil quality here that is not gonna have a significant effect on engine performance
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Old 19-09-2004, 12:26 AM   #31
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I dont favour any oil, very open minded! but done some more research on Mobil 1 (oil I use!).

It is made from ester base stocks, and ExxonMobil has loads of different grades of ester base stocks for use in their synthetic engine oils.

The appropiate ester basestock is used in conjunction with PAO (polyalphaolefins) which is the major component of Mobil1 oil.

In terms of research and development ExxonMobil are streets ahead of Silkolene, who are more of a specialist manufacturer. Therefore I'm happy to use the top oil from probably the worlds leading oil company.

Exxonmobil are also constantly developing AN (Alkylated Naphthalene) synthetic base stocks which have even better qualities than ester/PAO base stocks, mainly improved thermal stability which is a crucial element of oil.

like I said in earlier posts, until we do more research into other oils then you can't just say oh well Silkolene is the best because we know all about that and it's made from ester base stocks.

From what I've been reading, the main culprit of "bogus synthetic oil" is Castrol, who were taken to court by ExxonMobil for false advertising claims. Late in 1997, Castrol changed the formula of its Syntec "full synthetic motor oil," eliminating the polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stock (that's the "synthetic" part, which makes up about 70 percent by volume of what's in the bottle) and replacing it with a "hydroisomerized" petroleum base stock so not really synthetic anymore!!
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Old 19-09-2004, 11:57 PM   #32
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Ok sweet the dabate gets warm once more.

As I recall the Mobil 1 was a previous oil some people had trouble researching.

To me it created the same breather fume mess as the Esso F/S shit I am using at the moment.

But tis good to hear there is an easier available ester PAO based oil out there which can be had cheaper than Silkolene.

Any response from the oilman or Mr Gordon M???

Is this true, are your silkolenes better for film strength or uniformity of molecular size/stability???

I can readily get 15W 50 oils and as I was gonna use 20W 50 (mineral) for the pinto at the recommendation of several tuners who see their engines come back for rebuilds after various oil uses and abuses (burton I think).

But if the mobil 1 is just as good then I can get this for about £30 per gallon.

Also bearing in mind this engine is my pride and joy and I intendd to run it in properly, what oil use do you recommend?

Happy to spend what is needed as it is a 2K motor, but oil shall no doubt be changed at 1K or perhaps 1.5K or 500miles if I can. Then longer service intervals thereafter. I shall be doing 500 miles before I rev her past 4Krpm and the fully bedded in red line is at 7-7200rpm (due to non forged pistons and big rings).

Likely she shall never do more than 3K between oil changes as this is every year, but if I find a holy grail oil then I might trust it past 1 year????
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Old 20-09-2004, 12:13 AM   #33
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as Gordon pointed out before its difficult to find out exactly what percentage ingredients some of the mainstream oils are made up of.....

can you imagine coca-cola giving away the formula on their website...I dont think so!

so just because some oil companies dont tell you exactly whats in their oil, doesnt necessary mean that they are trying to hide something!

We've heard how Silkolene state exactly what goes into their oil...well so what, does that mean its the best.

I think the problem with oil, are the brands selling for around the £20 price that claim to be fully sythetic, but actually use Group III base stocks not Group IV.

Any oil retailing for over £30 is probably gonna be using Group IV base stocks and a big percentage of PAO's.

Simple comparison I know, but think it makes relative sense!

Keep hearing how Silkolene is supposedly the best around cos its formed using ester base stocks, well ester will be old hat soon with the continued development of AN base stocks that offer better thermal stability than ester derived oils.

It all boils down again to what I've always thought, there isnt much to choose between the top few fully synthetic oils around, each one will have their own advantages, and no oil is head and shoulders above the rest.
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Old 20-09-2004, 12:55 AM   #34
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i'll stick to my shell helix fully synth cuz its free
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Old 20-09-2004, 07:08 AM   #35
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Discount motorist place in Cowley does Millers so i might just grab that since they have it. Lots of thing to do and no ability to do it
 
Old 20-09-2004, 11:56 AM   #36
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Good stuff Mark, additional information and some additional insight. Can you link the source of the information stating Mobil 1 is "made from ester base stocks".

I agree it does look like ExxonMobil does have "loads of different grades of ester base stocks for use in their synthetic engine oils". But I can't find anywhere it is stated that these stocks are utilised in the manufacturing of Mobil 1. SuperSyn is the trademarked ExxonMobil Chemical product in Mobil 1 Racing 0w30 and SuperSyn is a Polyalphaolefin (PAO) not an Ester. The ExxonMobil ester product set is Esterex which I don't see in Mobil 1. I looked at the data sheets for Mobil 1 0w40, Mobil 1 5w30 and Mobil 1 Racing 0w30, it states no where that there are propriety esters (Esterex) in those Mobil products.

What I find interesting is that on going to the ExxonMobil website to look for AN's, the firm producing them, is actually ExxonMobil Chemical. A subdivision of the parent, upstream and downstream oil business. This company provides precursor ingredients for lubricant's, chemicals and plastics etc. (the raw building blocks). What ExxonMobil Chemical do is provide their intellectual property (IP) to other oil and chemical firms so those firms can produce various different types of oils, plastics and tyres (remember oil is the basic component in virtually everything from paint to plastic bumpers). In effect this means Redline, Silkolene and others could purchase these trademarked products such as SpectraSyn, SpectraSyn Ultra, Esterex and Synesstic and use them to blend fully-synthetic oils.

ExxonMobil Chemical state that they offer "base fluids for synthetic lubricants used in passenger car engines, heavy-duty engines and small engines such as 2- and 4-stroke. Our synthetic base fluids also can assist formulators in upgrading mineral oil formulations to meet challenging specifications such as GF-4 for passenger car engine oils and PC-9 (Mack T10 test) for heavy-duty engine oils. In addition, our synthetic base fluids can help meet manufacturers' extended oil drain interval requirements."

'Assisting formulators in upgrading mineral oil formulations' is something ExxonMobil Chemical clearly do to help firms produce semi-synth oils or maybe even fully-synth under the legal ruling we looked at before. Still nothing about putting esters or AN's in Mobil 1. The Oilman stated before that Mobil 1 is a PAO oil not an Ester based oil. Esters again being bi-polar are the superior of the two.

"The appropriate ester base stock is used in conjunction with PAO (polyalphaolefins) which is the major component of Mobil1 oil."

On what I've found so far we can't confirm this. If Mobil 1 does have esters or ExxonMobil Chemical's trademarked Esterex in it, they don't say so. We also don't know how much Ester basestock, if any, is used in conjunction with PAO's in Mobil 1. Silkolene use a pretty high component of esters I think, they state it's a 100% ester synthetic oil and Esters are superior to PAO's being bi-polar. It would be good to find out if Mobil 1 does have esters at all.

Below is the marketing blurb from the Automotive part of ExxonMobil Chemical's website. It mentions lubricants within the blurb but the sub products listed are not Automotive oil related. Interestingly not once do ExxonMobil Chemical mention their chemical products being used in their own parent company's automotive oil Mobil 1.

I'm not saying they don't (as they put Supersyn PAO in Mobil 1 Racing 0w30) but this chemical subdivision will be run as totally separate business and will see brands like Mobil 1 and other automotive oil companies as 'customers' to which they supply IP and precursor products for the right price.

"The next time that you enter an automobile, there is a good chance that ExxonMobil Chemical supplied a product that is an integral part of that car's appearance and performance. The product may be a lubricant that extends the life of the automobile's oil or may be a butyl rubber that keeps the tires inflated. ExxonMobil Chemical offers a wide range of products to manufacturers that can be found in Bumpers, Fuel Tanks, Hoses, Tires, Lubricants and Paints. Lubricants based on our synthetic base stocks provide superior wear protection and extended life to automotive oils and greases.

Whether you're putting a soda can in a cup holder, gas in the tank or replacing the oil in the engine, ExxonMobil Chemical is there. For more information, please select an Application on the left or visit one of our Product sites."


Butyl Polymers
Exact Plastomers
Exxelor Modifiers
Jayflex Plasticizers
Polyethylene
Polypropylene
Santoprene
Vistalon EPDM

None of the above products are related to engine oil and in the blurb above they state "Lubricants based on our synthetic base stocks provide superior wear protection and extended life to automotive oils and greases". This again could infer that the synthetic products are used to extend drain intervals or make mineral oils semi-synthetic.

Simply because ExxonMobil Chemical have a good lab and R&D department doesn't mean they use all of those products across the parent firm's Automotive lubrication products.

I'm still not saying "oh well Silkolene is the best because we know all about that and it's made from ester base stocks." It still comes down to the specific base ingredients and the proportion of esters vs PAO's used.

Mobil 1 appears still to be a PAO based oil not an ester based one.

This is a link to the ExxonMobil Chemical Synthetic Lubricant Basestocks brochure. FYI: AN's are additives that "extend the performance of automotive lubricants".

http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Pu...alBrochure.pdf

Perhaps the Oilman can get in touch with 'the Silkolene guru' or any oil guru for that matter and tell us more about ingredients of oils.

Cheers.

"To me it created the same breather fume mess as the Esso F/S shit I am using at the moment."

SLIK, Esso is Mobil and Mobil is Esso. Esso is the fuel brand of Exxon. Exxon merged with Mobil to create the worlds second largest company; ExxonMobil.
 
Old 20-09-2004, 06:11 PM   #37
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i cant belive the amount of essays written on here about oil................oil is oil, all are similarish, all lubricate the engine, and if like me you change it every 3000 miles, doesn't matter a shit if the viscosity is a micron better or it protects the engine 10 seconds faster than another brand.

I.M.O as long as its branded, approved and tested there shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 20-09-2004, 06:19 PM   #38
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Mobil 1 is made up of mainly PAO's yes.......think I read about 70% somewhere but dont quote that!

At the end of the day surely the most important thing is the oil's final quality rather than the exact percentages of ingredients.

Gordon said esters are bi-polar so better than PAO's. I aint no chemist but that seems a bit simplistic to me. If an oil is made up of PAO's that has better temp protection, thermal stability than a mainly ester oil then surely that is the important thing.

need to compare the final chemical properties of the oils.....rather than raw ingredients really

seems a pointless task comparing Mobil1 to Silkolene though, as they are both very high quality oils.

The main difference in oils as I said before is whether they are made from Group III basestocks and claim to be synthetic...they are the oils we should be advising against not high quality Group IV oils such as Mobil 1.

I've looked at Mobil 1 specifications, they are very close to the specs of one of their Esterex basestocks. Not conclusive by any means, but another sign that Mobil1 is on par with any mainly ester derived oil

ExxonMobil Chemical offers a complete line of SpectraSyn™ and SpectraSyn Ultra™polyalphaolefins (PAO), Esterex™ esters and Synesstic™ AN blendstocks as base fluids for synthetic lubricants used in passenger car engines, heavy-duty engines and small engines such as 2- and 4-stroke.
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Old 21-09-2004, 08:07 AM   #39
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Wow,

You chaps are really getting into this, I am impressed with the amount of research going on here! However even for me it is getting a little complicated.

I hope this will help put the basestocks into black and white for the less chemically minded.

TYPES OF SYNTHETIC BASESTOCKS

Synthetic basestocks are not all the same. There are few different chemical types that may be used as synthetic basestock fluids. There are only three that are seen commonly in automotive applications:

Polyalphaolefins (PAO's)
These are the most common synthetic basestocks used in the US and in Europe. In fact, many synthetics on the market use PAO basestocks exclusively. PAO's are also called synthesized hydrocarbons and contain absolutely no wax, metals, sulfur or phosphorous. Viscosity indexes for nearly all PAO's are around 150, and they have extremely low pour points (normally below –40 degrees F).
Although PAO's are also very thermally stable, there are a couple of drawbacks to using PAO basestocks. One drawback to using PAO's is that they are not as oxidatively stable as other synthetics. But, when properly additized, oxidative stability can be achieved.

Diesters
These synthetic basestocks offer many of the same benefits of PAO's but are more varied in structure. Therefore, their performance characteristics vary more than PAO's do. Nevertheless, if chosen carefully, diesters generally provide better pour points than PAO's
(about -60 to -80 degrees F) and are a little more oxidatively stable when properly additized.
Diesters also have very good inherent solvency characteristics which means that not only do they burn cleanly, they also clean out deposits left behind by other lubricants - even without the aid of detergency additives.
They do have one extra benefit though, they are surface-active (electrostatically attracted to metal surfaces), PAO’s are not “polar”, they are “inert”.

Polyolesters
Similar to diesters, but slightly more complex. Greater range of pour points and viscosity indexes than diesters, but some polyolester basestocks will outperform diesters with pour points as low as -90 degrees F and viscosity indexes as high as 160 (without VI additive improvers). They are also “polar”.

Other synthetic basestocks exist but are not nearly as widely used as those above - especially in automotive type applications. Most synthetics on the market will use a single PAO basestock combined with an adequate additive package to provide a medium quality synthetic lubricant. However, PAO basestocks are not all the same. Their final lubricating characteristics depend on the chemical reactions used to create them.

Premium quality synthetics will blend more than one "species" of PAO and/or will blend these PAO basestocks with a certain amount of diester or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the relative benefits of these different basestocks.

This requires a great deal of experience and expertise. As a result, such basestock blending is rare within the synthetic lubricants industry and only done by very experienced companies. In addition, although such blending creates extremely high quality synthetic oils, they don't come cheap. You get what you pay for!

Cheers

Guy.
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Old 21-09-2004, 08:28 AM   #40
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Well, as you say Mark, the best thing we can do is develop a spreadsheet type of thing with all the oils we've discussed.

Ingredients, percentage of ingredients if known (esters vs PAO's), flashpoints, pour point, viscosity etc.

Everyone will then have a clear idea of which oils to choose from and those to be avoided.

I take your point Paul but this debate was started to try and find out the best oils to use rather than those adequate. Taking the rather extreme example of the 306 Cosworth that had to be stripped after every 40 competition miles and the bearings replaced, until the correct oil to use was found; the wrong or best or adequate oil in an engine is pretty important.

OK, on a road car going to work and the shops and back, it doesn't really matter but anyone taking their car on a track day or into competition might want to know otherwise.

Throughout the debate we've learnt that Ester and PAO's oils are the superior over mineral, semi-synthetic and hydrocracked fully synthetic. That oils made up from the base stocks of the higher grades IV and V are the oils to look for.

I for one am very glad that I'm no longer under the impression Castrol RS 10w60 is a fantastic oil for the Rallye and that I've been able to find an oil that is the correct viscosity rating recommended by Peugeot for the S1 Rallye and that it is one (of the many) best properly fully synthetic engine oils.

Everyone has their own preference I guess, I'll be sticking to the Silkolene Pro S 5w40 in both the road going Rallye and the Rallye rally car.

Cheers
 
Old 23-09-2004, 08:46 AM   #41
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guy- haha,also check- stew-r, stew-s, stew-vts,saxo-stew

i get around.lol
oh,and for anyone who wants to know,i use silkolene,and wil only ever use it. and i bought it from guy at opie oils,FAR CHEAPER,seriously far cheaper than anywhere else ive seen.(in fact,i bought 20litres of it)
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Old 23-09-2004, 10:14 AM   #42
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I use Castrol 'R' in my race Mini, great stuff, been around for years, it's like treacle though!

I'd love it in my 106, the smell you get out the pipe is amazing
 
Old 23-09-2004, 10:16 AM   #43
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Was going to get the silkolene but a place near me does Millers and that seems to be reguarded about as highly
 
Old 23-09-2004, 04:22 PM   #44
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Castrol R rocks.

Astothe above ages ago I meant to say shell not esso. had trouble logging in.
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Old 23-09-2004, 06:25 PM   #45
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Question

I fear I may regret asking this, but what's wrong with Magnatec??
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Old 23-09-2004, 06:29 PM   #46
Gordon M
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Either way on the Esso/Shell thing SLIK I reckon the Silkolene might be worth trying so stop the same breather fume mess.

The Oilman is pretty good at recommending oils for particular engines if you need to ask him about the Pinto as well. All he needs is capacity, age, model etc. I'd reckon the Silkolene would probably be fine in the Pinto as well (see the thing about the Opel touring car engine and bearings wear).

Cheers.
 
Old 23-09-2004, 06:35 PM   #47
Gordon M
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I'd read all the previous threads BillG. It's all there.

MagnaWax/MagnaShite is a semi-sythetic I think (you know I don't actually know if it's touted as mineral, fully or semi synth) oil which is hydro cracked i.e. based on mineral oil but highly modified with lots of rubbish to enable Castrol to call it semi-synthetic oil. It's all got to do with the purity of the 'ingredients' that make the oil that are the key. Uniform molecules, that don't need alteration etc.

Trust me, just read the string from the top and the one linked from before. You won't need to ask another question about oil ever again.

Cheers
 
Old 23-09-2004, 10:04 PM   #48
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Still watching chaps,

You lot have really doone your home work.

If you want give silkolene a go drop me a mail for good prices.

If there is any areas of this subject you feel uncovered please do ask and I will do my best to help.

Cheers

Guy
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Old 24-09-2004, 09:02 AM   #49
SLIK
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As per Gordons advice I have the following question for Guy.

I Am about to complete the construction of a brand new Pinto engine (as soon as a miracle allows me to purchase the cam).

Basically running a 1.5mm overbore with new standard oversive pistons (big rings, 7K rpm limit). Fitted are uprated Wandervaal bearings, and heavy duty cam bearings. Oiling the whole lot is the standard high pressure pump upgrade. And when the cam appears it shall be a new spray bar with 1mm spray holes.

The whole lot is balanced etc etc.

So I am looking for 2 recommendations, a running in oil (if needed) and subsequently oil to run her on.

There shall be no danger from missed service intervals and likely she shall be unlikely to get over 3K miles beween oil changes. Or once a year whichever sooner.
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Old 24-09-2004, 10:48 AM   #50
Gordon M
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And finally, in totally unrelated news, a study that sounds really silly, yet is strangely compelling on several levels.

<http://esp.realcities.com/a/hBBUwzNAPnpi4APtV1IAQIJ7L.APnpi4t6/gmsv1017>.
 
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