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Problems, Servicing & Repairs Information and topics about technical problems, servicing and repairs to the Rallye

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Old 18-12-2010, 09:28 PM   #1
jstimpson
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Idle issues/poor throttle response..

Hi

My S1 rally car I'm building seems to have a really poor/slow throttle response. Are they usually a bit slow (compared to old 205 GTi) or is it just mine?

Also, when idling the revs often drop very low and occasionally a yellow light appears on the dash (not sure what it means), and sometimes stalls.

Before I start swapping bits around does anyone have any advice on possible solutions/problems?

Cheers
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Old 19-12-2010, 11:42 AM   #2
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Idle Control Valve - located on the inlet/throttle body.

Remove it and clean it.
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Old 20-12-2010, 09:21 PM   #3
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I will give it a try, is it common to have any problems with the throttle potentiometer? Cheers
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Old 20-12-2010, 09:46 PM   #4
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The idle control valve (ICV) is more likely to be faulty than the TPS, they fail quite often.
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Old 20-12-2010, 10:01 PM   #5
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Its also worth checking all the vac pipes coming from the inlet manifold are connected properly and in good condition. I had similar symptoms once when the vac pipe leading to the MAP sensor had popped off, i must have knocked it off when working on the car or something.
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Old 21-12-2010, 05:16 PM   #6
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The yellow check engine light, could mean loads of different things. You really should pull the diagnostics code (#1 very easy on the s1, there's a guide somewhere on the forum, I made a short one below.) When does the light appear?

Mine went on, when left idle for a couple of minutes, and disappeared again when you gave the engine some revs. Pulled the fault codes, and got "52" mixture control. This was because the ECU idle map settings was unable to run properly in closed-loop mode. Solved it with a chip from the 1.6 s2.

On the throttle lag, I get that too, have seen it on several of these engines. Surely can't be related to the idle speed control valve? This could just as well be a mapping or ignition timing problem?

Tell us some more about your setup, engine specs? ecu?



#1 What you need to do, is find the green 2 pin plug below the ECU in your engine compartment. Short pin number 2, with ground for three seconds, and the check engine light in your dash will start blinking, then pause, and blinking again. E.g. five blinks, pause, two blinks, means 52. - Code 52 is mixture control. Short it again, for three seconds, to receive the next code.
As far as I remember, code 12 means test starting, and 11 means test ending. Not sure if it's the other way round.


I used a long wire with spade connectors on each end, one which plugged into pin #2 of the plug, and the other which I shorted to the door hinge bolts, while sitting inside the car, watching the dash.
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Old 21-12-2010, 08:13 PM   #7
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Top info guys, the engine is pretty standard at the moment minus an induction kit and a single box exhaust system as it's an enduro rally car but will probably be rebuilt in the near future. I just need to get it running properly so I can start using it.

Where can I find more diagnostic codes like these?

Cheers
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Old 21-12-2010, 08:19 PM   #8
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The codes listed under Magneti Marelli 8P should translate to your ECU:

http://www.peugeotlogic.com/workshop...e/testcone.htm

Code Description
13 Inlet air thermistor
14 Coolant thermistor
15 Fuel pump control
21 Throttle potentiometer
22 Idling regulation stepper motor control
27 Vehicle speed sensor
31 Mixture regulation auto-adaptation
33 Inlet manifold pressure sensor
34 Canister purge valve
41 Engine speed sensor
42 Injectors control
45 Coil 1 control function
52 Mixture regulation
53 Battery voltage
54 Ignition injection Control Unit
57 Coil 2 control

You can use the procedure I described to read them through the check engine light in the dash. Any problems let me know, and I can try to guide you through.

Oh, and if you get code 52, it doesn't necessarily mean that your o2(lambda) sensor is dead, it could just as well be the cause of another issue.
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Old 22-12-2010, 08:38 AM   #9
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Interesting code list. I will try that with mine. So you just need the one spade lead to short it?

I have the same idle issues. I cleaned the icv and reset it. It ran ok for a day then went back to normal poor idling. At the moment I am just disconnecting the battery overnight and it seems to atleast start idling ok afterwards. If I dont let it stall in the first 10mins of driving then it will usually idle ok for the rest of the day, but if you let it die soon after start up (for instance not enough throttle with clutch) then it will basically not idle at all untill you either leave it for two days or reset it again. Great fun!
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Old 22-12-2010, 09:02 AM   #10
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Im sure the codes reead different on our snap on :S like mixture control aint number 52.... ill have to check.

Your ''lag'' may be from an air leak around the manifold area, as thats the same problem i had with mine.
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Old 22-12-2010, 12:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thiscocks View Post
Interesting code list. I will try that with mine. So you just need the one spade lead to short it?

I have the same idle issues. I cleaned the icv and reset it. It ran ok for a day then went back to normal poor idling. At the moment I am just disconnecting the battery overnight and it seems to atleast start idling ok afterwards. If I dont let it stall in the first 10mins of driving then it will usually idle ok for the rest of the day, but if you let it die soon after start up (for instance not enough throttle with clutch) then it will basically not idle at all untill you either leave it for two days or reset it again. Great fun!
Yup, you just need one spade lead! I can't seem to find the original post, from which I learned it, but its here on the forum somewhere. Probably even a sticky. That's how I found this forum.

The code listings should apply to the s1 Rallye only.
The s2 Rallye uses OBD, where you will probably need a tester to pull those codes out.

I am very confident that code "52" means mixture control.

When I first got this fault (52), I replaced the lambda sensor, which sorted it.

Later I changed to engine for an s2 block (tu5j2) with s1 loom, inlet and management in my '95 s1 rallye. I was having some difficulties with the engine management, and the check engine light would show whenever the car was left to idle for a period of time, and disappear again after revving the engine.

I used a 4-gas tester to diagnose, and could see a lambda value at 1,137 in idle ~900 rpm (lean mixture or exhaust leak). At 2.500 rpm lambda value was at 1,006 (good). I think the s1 ecu eproms idle program is unable to run the increased engine displacement of the 1.6 s2 block.

So, I changed the EPROM in my s1 Magneti Marelli 8p .40 ECU with the one from the s2 Magneti Marelli 8p .16 ECU, which sorted that out. No more check engine light for me, (yeah, I did check, that the bulp hasn't burned out! ) The engine runs a lot smoother now, where I was unable to keep a constant throttle at 1500 rpm before (flicking up and down). Need to get the 4-gas test done again, as it's going in for MOT soon.



Btw, whats up with the BOSCH codes that says "try with new ECU", in that link i posted in my previous post. That's just, not very convincing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Misspiggy View Post
Im sure the codes reead different on our snap on :S like mixture control aint number 52.... ill have to check.

Your ''lag'' may be from an air leak around the manifold area, as thats the same problem i had with mine.
I'm seeing poor throttle response like jstimpson.

How would you describe the lag you had? (caused by air leak)

I'm seeing about 1/2 to 1/4 second lag, from idle. When driving along, you wouldn't really notice it. But it is definitely slower than my 205 1.4 monopoint injection, and my 205 GTI. I am pretty sure there is no air leaks.

Last edited by goodbytes; 22-12-2010 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 19-01-2011, 02:21 PM   #12
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hello everyone

i got that code, our auto data machine at work said that code 52 is Mixture control, supply voltage and air exhasut leak

ive checked for air leaks and found none.

i decided to replace the lambda sensor.

once i had done that, it was irract at idlling, ive cleaned the idle speed control valve

after it warmed up, it was idling at around 10k which is much lower than the lambda sensor i took off.

but it still shows the code, i have had it unplugged the ecu and thought that would erase the fault code

what is an ideal idle rev speed?

and is there anything else that i can check

i have a s1 with a later 1.6 block

is there anyone out there that can help me or do i need to call the A team
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:18 PM   #13
micheldeman
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Hi,
I just read through this thread as I have the same situation, I think.

I have a s1 rallye, setup with s1 inlet system, ECU and loom, but with a s2 1.6 8V rallye engine and a 4-2-1 exhaust manifold. Not that that matters alot I think.

The engine light comes up after a while idling, I can't have/keep the engine running on 1500rpm, it either falls back to around 800/1000 or goes up above 2000 or something. The light disappears when giving the engine a high rev. I have read the fault code with a self made led tester on the diognostic connector and it reads 5-2 (mixture control error).
@Goodbytes: You wrote that you swapped the eprom in your s1 ecu by a eprom from a s2 ecu. Can you just swap these eproms? I have an uprated (higher rev limit and more fuel mapped) eprom from a s2 1.6 8V ecu, but don't know whether I can just plug it into my s1 ecu.

Do you have any suggestions?

thanks,

Michael
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Old 20-11-2015, 04:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micheldeman View Post
Hi,
I just read through this thread as I have the same situation, I think.

I have a s1 rallye, setup with s1 inlet system, ECU and loom, but with a s2 1.6 8V rallye engine and a 4-2-1 exhaust manifold. Not that that matters alot I think.

The engine light comes up after a while idling, I can't have/keep the engine running on 1500rpm, it either falls back to around 800/1000 or goes up above 2000 or something. The light disappears when giving the engine a high rev. I have read the fault code with a self made led tester on the diognostic connector and it reads 5-2 (mixture control error).
@Goodbytes: You wrote that you swapped the eprom in your s1 ecu by a eprom from a s2 ecu. Can you just swap these eproms? I have an uprated (higher rev limit and more fuel mapped) eprom from a s2 1.6 8V ecu, but don't know whether I can just plug it into my s1 ecu.

Do you have any suggestions?

thanks,

Michael
Yes you can - but sometimes it will not start just after the change - i think you need to disconnect battery for long time - few days if it will not start after the chip change

Not sure if is any special way of erasing memory in ECU other than disconnect and wait....
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Old 20-11-2015, 07:15 PM   #15
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The content I wrote is a bit outdated, I have replaced my S1 chip in my S1 ecu by a S2 group N chip and it worked perfectly from the first time I turned the key. The only thing is that the engine tends to stall when accelerating from idle when cold, but after less than a mile it's all right. Rev limit is around 8000rpm, but I normally don't need to touch that.
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