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Rolling Road Results & Dynographs Been on the rollers? Post your results here!

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Old 19-08-2014, 06:20 PM   #1
Andrew-Ralston
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SG Performance 1.6 16V

Most of you would know that I've had an engine built from Steven Gault.

The plan was to build a budget spec engine for competing with but when you get a thought in your head and decide I could just wait save up a bit more and go down this route...

The route was still to achieve 180bhp anything more would be a bonus and what a bonus it was!

With the spec of engine I have, the work and detail put into it he has charged me pennies to actually do the build!

I have attached the graph for everyones viewing pleasure as this isn't one of those engines that everyone knows about but only the builder and owner knows what it's making

The pic is straight on the computer but side ways on photobucket! Lets see how it goes!

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Old 20-08-2014, 07:07 AM   #2
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chuffed .......much!? lol
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Old 20-08-2014, 08:01 AM   #3
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Afa chuft pal! Offshore again so no time to enjoy it! Although more pennies to spend!
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Old 20-08-2014, 04:01 PM   #4
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Nice power mate
Lovely torque curve

What's the engine spec?
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Old 20-08-2014, 05:07 PM   #5
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Not got it to hand but;

40mm Jenveys
forged bottom end
extensive head work done solid lifters etc
and a very lairy set of cams.
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Old 20-08-2014, 07:12 PM   #6
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Very nice power curve!
Rods and pistons or just pistons in the bottom end?
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Old 20-08-2014, 08:24 PM   #7
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Yeah went for rods and pistons in the end, I didn't want to half do a job especially if a year down the line decided I want more out of it but bottom end is no use unless I get rods.

It was initially meant to be just pistons but saved a bit more and went for rods too.
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Old 24-08-2014, 08:44 AM   #8
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Interesting graph!

I appreciate that most of the time you'll be able to keep it on the boil using the gears, but how does it perform at the low end (i.e. below 4k)?

Are there more torques to be found with further work in future?
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Old 24-08-2014, 10:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris B View Post
Interesting graph!

I appreciate that most of the time you'll be able to keep it on the boil using the gears, but how does it perform at the low end (i.e. below 4k)?

Are there more torques to be found with further work in future?
Yeah well next thing would be Gearbox to get... I will be putting an MA on munch up just to get the feel of it. I haven't actually touched the engine I have eyeballed it in the back of Garry Muirs 4x4 when I was out at his, so really I'm saying the car isn't ready for it.

I'm offshore just now and home at the start of Sept so I can get a start on the car it's self and hopefully turn key within the next 2/3 months.

More torque could probably come from longer trumpets.. can't remember the length of trumpets but you get an idea...

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Old 28-08-2014, 05:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris B View Post
Interesting graph!

I appreciate that most of the time you'll be able to keep it on the boil using the gears, but how does it perform at the low end (i.e. below 4k)?
When is a competition engine being used below 4k rpm?

I was never below 6 - 6.5k rpm on a hillclimb with my old motor.
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Old 29-08-2014, 07:05 AM   #11
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If it doesn't matter, where's the harm in showing it? It would indicate better how wide the torque curve really is and properly scale it. There's more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to developing competition engines and if you're going down a route that produces an engine that needs to be revved and kept lit like you do Dave, you're looking at alot more wear and tear, especially for the gearbox and clutch. I think Cris was probably interested to know what the trade off is, if there is one. there's nothing to be ashamed of with these results for a budget build and I'm sure SG will have taken care to get it together well and hopefully doesn't focus too much on rubbishing my results as has been reported to me on occasion. I think by the time this has been discussed and thrashed out, Andrew will appreciate why I and some of my customers, are not really keen on publishing dyno results anymore. The fact is, that if they're any better than others are achieving or expect from you; then they simply cry foul and try to undermine them. Better to let the real world performance do the talking.
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Old 29-08-2014, 04:54 PM   #12
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If your below 4k on a n/a engine your not driving it properly...what's wear and tear got to do with being up that far in the rev range? All competition n/a engines should be constantly up there
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Old 29-08-2014, 05:56 PM   #13
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A few championship winners and record holders might want your driving tips then.

Wear and tear has alot to do with it. That and fatigue issues increase dramatically with higher RPM limits; if the engine delivers the required performance with less revs, it will last longer and is less likely to give trouble. If it also has the low down grunt to pull out of a bad pace note call, chicane balk in a pack or fluffed gear selection, the driver will generally appreciate it I find. Jack Thorne, currently the fastest Super 1600 in UK Rallycross, despite frequently revving the nuts off his motor, constantly tells me it's the grunt low down that gives him the edge.
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Old 29-08-2014, 07:16 PM   #14
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Show me a graph of a revvy n/a engine where it would be worth accelerating below 4k?

This particular engine is revving to a modest 8k... most of yours probably rev to that and beyond? Meaning the same wear and tear your talking about must apply to your engines too
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Old 29-08-2014, 08:08 PM   #15
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http://www.goodhand.co.uk/sandy/files/JPBgraph.jpg

(graph is from his local rollers, independant; but similar to engine dyno results)

That engine's actually in a road and trackday car, has done over 10k since it was built, just completed a 3500mile continental trip (including the Ring and Alps), without using a drop of oil and gives over 40MPG too during normal driving. Similar spec to Cyb3r's, not as high revving but doesn't hold back to 9k RPM and accelerates cleanly from 1500RPM full throttle.

My race/rally TU 16vs generally give around 220bhp around 8300-8500RPM and about 200bhp at 7000RPM, so can be happily short shifted and still be quick. Cyb3r's is the only one currently running past 9000, most are on 8600RPM soft cuts, but most of the time they are being short shifted, which cuts down the wear and tear noticeably.
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Old 29-08-2014, 09:38 PM   #16
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Above 5200 rpm there's not much in it between the two engines to be honest (4/5 lbft ish?) .....apart from probably thousands of pounds

Below this rev range yours trumps it, but my point is on track/rally etc your not going to be down there
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Old 29-08-2014, 10:48 PM   #17
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As Sandy said, race and rally situations really can place the engines down at those revs, thoughght 1st gear hairpins for example with a proper gearset will have you doing 4k at a fair pace!!
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Old 30-08-2014, 05:57 AM   #18
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That's a rolling road graph, which because of the inaccuracies of transmission loss estimation, the mid range does not match engine dyno results. The point is to show the curve from an independant source. The narrowest point is 7lbft@6500RPM, it's 9-36lbft better everywhere else. Cost is irrelevant, you asked "Show me a graph of a revvy n/a engine where it would be worth accelerating below 4k? " and there's a good example.
I've built much cheaper engines with comparable curves, the extra cost is mostly invested in component quality for reliability and durability.

Regarding going below 4k (below 5250 should really be the point of discussion from the OP graph), see Will DiClaudio's 2012-2013 Combe Saloons overall winning 106, launching using 3000RPM and using 3-5000RPM on just about every corner and especially in traffic:
http://youtu.be/qQ_J0_EUmdg

Or Colin breaking the long establashed Mod Prod 2 litre record at Prescott recently, using 2-2500RPM through the slow stuff:
http://youtu.be/IXMbKPRYLt0

I'm afraid in my world it's a bit old fashioned to disregard performance low down, if it's there it improves your game.
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Old 30-08-2014, 11:51 AM   #19
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Just watched the 106 vid... He launches at 3kish and he's no way below 5 for the remainder of the race when he's on the boil (assuming that's a 10k rpm counter and 5k rpm is 9 o'clock)

It's not a good example really is it when you have access to a lot more torque/power further up the rev range...if the powers up there why would you not be on it? In a road car fair enough

Where's 9-36 lbft come from? I'm talking 5200 and beyond here

P.s that's with those stubby trumpets too, put some 90mms on there and I bet the gap between the two engines will be even closer still
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Old 30-08-2014, 02:02 PM   #20
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I think I've figured who you are now and why you're trying so hard to antagonise me. So apologies for the thread clutter Andrew. No point continuing, all the answers are already there and you just want to drag it out.
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Old 30-08-2014, 04:05 PM   #21
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Not everyone who wants one of these engines wants it for competition use Dave

It's good to see some engines being discussed and compared on here. We're very lucky to have some great builders tuning French engines. I bet Andrew Ralston can't wait to get this fitted and used.
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Old 30-08-2014, 09:12 PM   #22
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I think I've figured who you are now and why you're trying so hard to antagonise me. So apologies for the thread clutter Andrew. No point continuing, all the answers are already there and you just want to drag it out.
I'm not trying hard to antagonise anybody...why would I? I'm not a rival engine builder/tuner or whatever.

Just giving my opinion on the two engines in the upper rev ranges... Why are you taking offence?
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Old 31-08-2014, 09:57 AM   #23
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I think I've figured who you are now and why you're trying so hard to antagonise me.
Jeez. Paranoid much or what?
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Old 31-08-2014, 08:32 PM   #24
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Jeez. Paranoid much or what?
Please don't post with the sole intention of winding people up. it is not constructive to anyone, particularly the OP or the forum.
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Old 31-08-2014, 08:55 PM   #25
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All I will add is,it's fantastic to have well established and renowned engine builders on the forum. I've been in touch with many over the years and have to say that both Sandy and Steven have been incredibly helpful with sharing their knowledge and expertise.

Let's not argue about who does it the best, personally I find it very interesting seeing how all engine builders use the fundamental principals in their builds, but add their own genius to make it that much different from one another's in terms of performance and power delivery.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:24 AM   #26
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Wow...

Never knew this would get as heated as this!

I only put this graph up because there are a lot of hi spec engine builds out there and a lot and I mean a LOT of people would love to know what kind of power there kicking out, regardless if I have or he has 1bhp more and 2lb.ft torque more or I spent 10k more or he spent 10k.

I will be gearing this for Knockhill and I don't think I will see under 4k there, If I cock up at any time and end up below 4k I will take it like a man... I fucked up.

Even if I got an engine built from you Sandy the graph would have been put up because I'm the kind of lad that doesn't really give a... about what anyone thinks even if the power wasn't what I hoped for, I hoped for a 180/190bhp build and came away with a 206bhp build and I'm happy as a pig in shite!

I might even get a set of longer trumpets on and if a set bigger bodies become available snap them up and see what the power difference is!

Anyone got a 106 I can put the engine in just now?! Mines won't be ready for months!
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:25 AM   #27
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Anyone got a 106 I can put the engine in just now?! Mines won't be ready for months!
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:49 AM   #28
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lol!!! Take it to Garry's... we can sort something out!
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:01 PM   #29
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Wahoo membership finally renewed so can catch up on all these types of threads!

Awesome engine Andrew, enjoy it. And I'm with you, if it puts a smile on your face who gives a crap what BHP it makes. I do understand though that in competition, power and drivability help massively.
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