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Suspension, Handling & Brakes Suspension set ups, uprated brakes

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Old 18-07-2016, 01:04 PM   #1
micheldeman
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tracking advise please

Hi, on my S1 rallye, I have fitted GAZ gold coilovers with 300LB springs, lowered the car about 4cm at front and 3 cm at rear. GAZ has added -1.5 degrees camber to the front struts. I am using comp brake solid top mounts in power steering position. I have the standard 22mm ARB at front.
Everything else is new too, reconditioned gearbox with Quaife LSD, new J&R drive shafts, new wheel bearings, new lower ball joints, new tie rod ends. Powerflex purple bushes all round for suspension and fast road engine mounts. So solid as a rock.

Rear is still on original dampers, but lowered 3cm, standard 19mm torsion bars and a 24mm GTI ARB. Rear axle is unreconditioned, but I think it's still ok, but 100% sure though. Will be replaced in the future with different specs anyway.

I haven't alligned the front wheels yet, but I noticed that the car is pulling to the right when accelerating and returning back when releasing the throttle. Also, if you constantly push and release the throttle pedal, the steering wheel tends to get a shock to the right and then returns.

In constant speed or when releasing the throttle, the car goes in a straight line too. Also when braking, the car stays in a straight line.

Steering wheel is in a nice centered position.

Can this pulling to the right be a tracking/allignment problem that just needs to be sorted, or can there be another reason, i.e. play somewhere? I have checked the inner side tie rod ends, and they don't show play.

The reason I am asking is that I can't understand myself why tracking can lead to pulling to one or the other side. But I am not an expert in this matter.

Car is also sensitive to markings and wear on e.g. motorways. It may have too much toe out or may be the rear beam still be worn?

What toe in or out do you recommend. It's for road use.

I have new Nankang Toursport XR-611 175/60R14 79H on my steelies all round.

thanks

Last edited by micheldeman; 18-07-2016 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 23-07-2016, 03:57 PM   #2
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I just checked with the wire method, I have 0.6 degrees toe in at the front wheels.
I think I will just bring the car to measure up everything.

just came back from a garage where they can do alignment, but they said their gauges wouldn't fit because my car being lowered. There's not enough or no space between the wheel arches and the wheels themselves.
How do other people get their wheels aligned?

Last edited by micheldeman; 23-07-2016 at 03:58 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 23-07-2016, 06:41 PM   #3
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From what I understand, as soon as the camber is changed from the standard, the car needs tracking again.

I use a local tyre garage that has a fancy Hunter 4 wheel tracker, never seen an issue with cars being too low, the mirrors clamp onto the edge of tyre wall.

However, i have found a lot of garages are reluctant to do the 106 as it is such a pain in the arse to track, and I was often getting a lot of excuses to not do it at other garages, even the guy i use now!

Remember to tell them that you have changed the camber, as the system needs to take account of that.

I have -1.5 on the front of mine, it was tracked same day and never had a issue with pulling.
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Old 23-07-2016, 07:33 PM   #4
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If the user of the alignment machine is old or useless they cant do that, iv had it where they refuse to do cars that are lowered.

I use a place called bram racing and the guys there are fully trained up to the nines and can set it to how ever you want it, think thats a Hunter machine.

But whether its lowered or not, the camber is fixed so they can still track a car up for toe.
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Old 24-07-2016, 09:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanker View Post
From what I understand, as soon as the camber is changed from the standard, the car needs tracking again.

I use a local tyre garage that has a fancy Hunter 4 wheel tracker, never seen an issue with cars being too low, the mirrors clamp onto the edge of tyre wall.

However, i have found a lot of garages are reluctant to do the 106 as it is such a pain in the arse to track, and I was often getting a lot of excuses to not do it at other garages, even the guy i use now!

Remember to tell them that you have changed the camber, as the system needs to take account of that.

I have -1.5 on the front of mine, it was tracked same day and never had a issue with pulling.
What toe in or out have you got?
Alignment is not very difficult on a 106, but it's that you need to lift and lower the car every time to reach and adjust the track rods. That's probably the reason.
Can alignment be a reason for pulling? As I can't reason why? People on this forum drive with different toe-in or toe-out settings, so what does that mean for pulling left or right?

I can only say, if the suspension is not symmetrical or when you would have play somewhere, it may cause pulling. Your differential or drive shafts can also be a reason, or different tyre pressures.

Quote:
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If the user of the alignment machine is old or useless they cant do that, iv had it where they refuse to do cars that are lowered.

I use a place called bram racing and the guys there are fully trained up to the nines and can set it to how ever you want it, think thats a Hunter machine.

But whether its lowered or not, the camber is fixed so they can still track a car up for toe.
Camber has been changed to -1.5.

Last edited by micheldeman; 24-07-2016 at 10:25 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 24-07-2016, 09:34 PM   #6
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Sorry, I did not go the read out from the last tracking.
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Old 24-07-2016, 09:44 PM   #7
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Yeah but what im saying is, the more you lower the car the more camber you get, it cant be adjusted unless you have adjustable topmounts.
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Old 24-07-2016, 10:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigyt View Post
Yeah but what im saying is, the more you lower the car the more camber you get, it cant be adjusted unless you have adjustable topmounts.
My GAZ gold coilovers have a -1.5 degrees camber machined in the knuckles, so it's not because of the car being lowered.
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Old 24-07-2016, 10:51 PM   #9
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But you cant adjust it can you. Its machined in so is fixed unless you use adjustable topmounts.

So no matter how much your lowered or if you run gaz golds with -1.5 camber, its fixed so any garage will be able to track the car to run parallel alignment front to back
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Old 25-07-2016, 08:02 AM   #10
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Yes, they should, but was told their gauges wouldn't fit over the wheel as there's not enough space between the arches and the tyres. The discussion is also more about the pulling to the right when accelerating.
If I suddenly accelerate, the steering wheel rocks to the right. So must be play, which I doubt as everything is new, or could be the LSD differential or drive shafts, which are all new too. I have to go for MOT anyway, so will try to get the guys to align the car also or at least to measure up the current settings.

Last edited by micheldeman; 25-07-2016 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 25-07-2016, 09:00 AM   #11
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Are you running the intermediate bearing on the driver's side shaft?

When lowered I did get some torque steer even though the alignment was spot on, but it was easily manageable.
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Old 25-07-2016, 10:15 AM   #12
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Yes, that bearing is there and tightened
I just booked the car for MOT on Wednesday and explained to check during the MOT if there might be any reason for this pulling. He has done rally cars himself, so hopefully he is interested and knowledged enough to find the problem.
I also got confirmed that alignment in itself can't be a reason for torque steer.

From WIKI:
Ways to reduce the effect of torque steer:

Where unequal length driveshafts are used, their torsional stiffness must be made equal.
Have both driveshafts of the equal length by using an intermediate shaft (or "lay shaft") on one side of the transmission. This is already implemented on most modern cars. When the driveshafts have different length and excessive torque is applied, the longer half shaft flexes more than the shorter one. However, this is a short term transient effect.
(Mine are new from J&R, but may both be built the same way, so the shorter drive shaft may be stiffer than the longer one, will check if short term transient effect disappears when continuously accelerating)
Check your Control arm bushings. The driver will experience torque steer when accelerating because of worn out control-arm bushings. (All bushes are new, but will be checked during the MOT)

Equalise the torque better between the driveshafts by using a low friction differential. The torque difference is zero if the differential is frictionless, and limited slip differentials, intended to increase power transfer, actually make torque steer much worse.
(I have a Quaife LSD )
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Old 25-07-2016, 10:53 AM   #13
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Quaife won't noticeably interfere as long as you have grip, you can rule out the driveshafts as well if they're not knackered.
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:13 PM   #14
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all the rod ends new? lower balljoInt with correct shanked bolt and non ovalled clakps? inner steering joint good?
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:53 PM   #15
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I haven't touched the inner steering joints, they are still original, so that still may be something to test during the MOT.
All rod ends, lower ball joints, wish bone bushes, engine mounts are new and of fast road type. Everything is solid as a rock.
New GAZ gold coilovers, comp brake top mounts etc. New drive shafts, wheel bearings, reconditioned gearbox, etc.
Will update again after the car has been on the ramp for the MOT test.

Last edited by micheldeman; 25-07-2016 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 25-07-2016, 05:34 PM   #16
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Would replace the middle bush if it's never been touched - not expensive and should make a difference.
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Old 25-07-2016, 08:57 PM   #17
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I have done some test driving today afternoon.
At the moment of acceleration, the steering wheel and near side wheel rocks to the right. When keeping accelerating and meanwhile having adjusted the steering wheel, the car drives straight. When releasing the throttle, car tends to go left, but goes straight again when adjusted the steering wheel.
When holding the steering wheel tight and accelerating, I can see the near side wheel (Mine is left and drive) making a turn to the right.
So, I am pretty sure, it has to do with the inner steering rack joints (as all other joints etc are brand new). Welshpug and Harv get the credits here.

Which parts on the drawing do you mean Harv?


Last edited by micheldeman; 25-07-2016 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 25-07-2016, 09:31 PM   #18
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What engine mounts are you running?
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Old 25-07-2016, 10:02 PM   #19
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The fast road ones from Spoox, pretty stiff stuff. Engine sits as a rock in the engine bay.
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Old 25-07-2016, 10:09 PM   #20
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parts 16 & 17
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Old 25-07-2016, 10:20 PM   #21
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I have uploaded a new picture above, numbers 16 and 17 or not in the list on the right. Does anyone know the part numbers. Remind, it's a left hand drive, so they may be different from the right hand drive version or are they the same for LHD and RHD? They look symmetrical to me, but need to know about the thread too, but my reasoning is that that shouldn't make a difference?

Last edited by micheldeman; 26-07-2016 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 26-07-2016, 08:41 AM   #22
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I have ordered them for only 15,- total on ebay, FAI branded. What a bargain.
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Old 26-07-2016, 09:22 AM   #23
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Hopefully they'll be the right ones - I think LHD and RHD were the same parts, just flipped around in alignment.

I'll need some for my quick rack at some point, getting the rods is the tricky bit!
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Old 26-07-2016, 09:43 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harv View Post
Hopefully they'll be the right ones - I think LHD and RHD were the same parts, just flipped around in alignment.
I think the same, thread shouldn't be a problem as the track rod ends both have normal right handed thread, if I am correct, so the inner track rod ends should be swappable too.
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Old 29-07-2016, 05:28 PM   #25
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Ok, received the inner track rods and have fitted them today. What a difference. Car is not pulling to the right any more when accelerating. When hands off the steering wheel, still a little torque steer to the right. I think, I can't solve that as literally every bush, mount, rubbers or whatsoever have been renewed now. Can still be due to car or suspension being asymmetrical? Or rear beam, which is going to be replaced by a brand new reconditioned one from IM axles and a satchell setup anyway.

Also btw replaced an oil seal on the lower selector arm on the gearbox, it was leaking a little gearbox oil there.
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