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Engine, Exhaust & Gearbox ECU chips, decats, cam kits,

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Old 12-06-2006, 05:21 PM   #1
tomthehack
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Throttle bodies on a 106 gti.

Have read so much about these ! and come september time im going to be taking out a loan of about 1500 to get some fitted , now me and my mate changed my engine without much difficulty , and i was wondering what was involved with this? is it something that needs professionals doing it or is it a case of having ago and going on a rolling- road>? I know alot of hard work would be involved but i want them could you also tell me the pros & cons of them . cheers boys! Tom.
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Old 12-06-2006, 05:28 PM   #2
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Lightbulb u get good power without

raceland 4-2-1 manifold 150
pugsport about 200
cat cams 300
dastek remap and rolling road session seting up car 480
simota raim air kit 80
4bar fuel reg ?

around 1210 total give or take say if you already have or buy second hand.


my car is this spec and has got 159 bhp and 126 lbs/ft torque that was with a gmc 4 into1 manifold.i am goin to get maped with raceland one to see how much better.


one thing you get with throttle bodies is a good noise
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Old 13-06-2006, 05:32 AM   #3
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Throttle bodies on a standard engine, done properly, will be similarly powerful to cams remap (probably better mid range), as economical as standard and will sound 10x as good, all the time, pottling around or flat out. Until you've lived with a well set up TB'd car, you can't really appreciate how pleasant it is!

Here's my guide if you're interested:

http://www.dcoe.net/guides/tbs/
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Old 13-06-2006, 10:20 AM   #4
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this is somthing i plan to do next move on to a vaslver and put tbs on it this is very interesting is there anymore info anyone. so whats the list of things needed

management / tuning
throttle bodies (any particular ones?)
manifold

any thing else? how does all the throttle connect up etc?
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Old 13-06-2006, 11:35 AM   #5
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Speak to Dave P,but from the experience that I've had -the cost difference vs performance increase over the std inlet which seems to be very well designed,,I wouldn't bother if its for mainly fast road or track use.
Every one seems to agree(?) that when you fit -708's (catcam),4-2-1 raceland or similar,induction kit ,pugsport or similar exh system and a chip/dastek unichip/re-map they produce around 157bhp +/- 2-3bhp ?
If you add up the extra cost of ,bodies,inlet manifold,linkages,fuel rail,rampipes,standalone management,mapping ,,, your looking at an extra 1500 - 1800 to gain 10bhp and you'll be lucky to get an airfilter on which will soon wreck an engine! I've seen a few cars in at Wallace Performance in Aberdeen with similar spec producing the figures mentioned
Ask Dave P
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Old 13-06-2006, 11:36 AM   #6
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?

Read the guide on Sandy's link, as far as I remember it covers all of the above.
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Old 13-06-2006, 03:48 PM   #7
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re-

So is it worth doing ?10 bhp, alot of money , nice sound need more opinions on this one... tom
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Old 13-06-2006, 03:53 PM   #8
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You have to consider one small issue, the area under the curve. Don't get hung up on the peak figures produced by a pair of cams and a remap.
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Old 13-06-2006, 04:08 PM   #9
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im not on bout cams mate im on bout the throttle bodies!
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Old 13-06-2006, 04:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomthehack
im not on bout cams mate im on bout the throttle bodies!
Read the replies then you might understand why I mentioned cams.
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Old 13-06-2006, 04:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepoxy
raceland 4-2-1 manifold 150
pugsport about 200
cat cams 300
dastek remap and rolling road session seting up car 480
simota raim air kit 80
4bar fuel reg ?

around 1210 total give or take say if you already have or buy second hand.


my car is this spec and has got 159 bhp and 126 lbs/ft torque that was with a gmc 4 into1 manifold.
You got 157bhp numb nuts!

You also forgot to mention the 7800rpm chip off Ebay @ 45 quid.
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Old 13-06-2006, 06:20 PM   #12
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i got

i got 2 bhp from muir taping up my simota pipe and having an irn-bru bottle for an oil breather..

hahahaha
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Old 13-06-2006, 06:24 PM   #13
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Coo coo... Coo coo...
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Old 13-06-2006, 06:27 PM   #14
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ordered

dave ordered heaps o bits for my anglia today


2 sparco revs
2fuel pump
all the fuel bittys and elec bits
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Old 13-06-2006, 07:29 PM   #15
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Well chosen and sufficeintly long TB's work extremely well on a standard 106 16v engine, I know this for a fact because I mine did.
It's almost unheard of though for ppl to fit TB's alone though, and some that do choose compromised short inlet tract design (often without filters yes,) and the mapping can also be suspect.
Add to that that ppl often start off thinking cams are 400, then they find out they need a 450-500 remap, or an ecu and wiring, a tubular exhaust manifold, an induction kit, the obligitory pugsport, the fitting of all that stuff and before you know it they've probably spent only slightly less than TB's could have cost, the economy and emissions have suffered for a nominal increase in performance, but by that time you're so far down the road, that you have to believe you made a good decision or you cry.
This is why I bang on about this so much, because I don't believe alot of people realise what they are getting into with cam changes.
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Old 13-06-2006, 08:54 PM   #16
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Mines might only be an 8v,but im fitting throttle bodies to it,more for the sound than the performence gains,but as sandy says,a descent set up gives gains everywhere.fair enough,they may only add on another 10bhp,but remember,the higher power figure you have,the harder it is to extract any more power.Peugeot had all the money in the world and they 'only' managed to squeeze 220 or so horse from this engine,which im guessing is its maximum without 'charging it.fitting bodies on a standard engine will give you a 30-40 bhp increase for roughly the same money,give or take a few hundred quid.

at the end of the day,its all about what you want from the car.

P.S.the other plus of fitting bodies is the improved driveability of the car if a cam is fitted,you can basically run as wild a cam as you want and still get the engine to idle as good as standard(or in the case of a pug-better)!
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Old 13-06-2006, 11:24 PM   #17
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next performance mod on my rallye is going to be throttle bodies but im going to be using standard ecu and bike throttlebodies(gsxr) i'll be getting the standard ecu mapped for the bodies then thats it no cam change as I think the standard 16v cam is quite peeky enough and I want a really drivable car that can pull hard from mid range in the rev's. Can't wait!
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Old 14-06-2006, 11:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave P
You got 157bhp numb nuts!

You also forgot to mention the 7800rpm chip off Ebay @ 45 quid.

are these chips any good - dont they just up the limiter and not adjust the fuelling???
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Old 14-06-2006, 12:03 PM   #19
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no need for one usually.

bluepoxy fitted his to raise the limiter for the catcams708s then hes got dastec unichip for the mapping which cant raise the limiter like a chip wizards remap or standalone
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Old 14-06-2006, 12:30 PM   #20
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Dave P ,you should post yours and Bluepoxys power curves inc torque from Wallace performance to remind/show everyone the difference that you pair found between T/B's
and the std inlet.
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Old 14-06-2006, 01:12 PM   #21
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Is it possible to use the standard ECU and get it remapped for throttle bodies, such as Bike Bodies? Would keep costs down for me...
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Old 14-06-2006, 01:47 PM   #22
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i would have thought so. another job for Wayne at Chip wizards!!

does anyone know how much a set of suzuki gsxr 600 tbs with 38mm centres, fuel rail, injectors, FPR and all the vacuum hoses should go for?
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Old 14-06-2006, 01:50 PM   #23
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roughly 100+ on ebay but there are alot for sale in america. as the dollar is so low at the moment might be to your advantage
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Old 14-06-2006, 01:52 PM   #24
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Cheers, the dollar will be to my disadvantage




Im not sure whether i want to go for bigger bodies or fit these.
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Old 14-06-2006, 01:56 PM   #25
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are they pre 2003 bodies? if so they can be spaced out seperately from each other, which is much more beneficial when making a inlet manifold and getting a staight air flow to the port.
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Old 14-06-2006, 02:09 PM   #26
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i havent got a clue, they came off a race bike that had its tb's uprated at the start of its life but I'll have a closer inspection tonight. From memory, i dont think you can space these ones out.
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Old 14-06-2006, 06:41 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry.M
Dave P ,you should post yours and Bluepoxys power curves inc torque from Wallace performance to remind/show everyone the difference that you pair found between T/B's
and the std inlet.
Will that be definitive? I don't think the DCOE TB set up dave has is ideal tbh, not meaning to be rude or anything!
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Old 14-06-2006, 06:46 PM   #28
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But it's a good comparison on the same RR.

It's just a pity Garry printed out the graph with the wrong cams in my car...

Numpty!
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Old 14-06-2006, 06:50 PM   #29
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im wanting back on...

im wanting to go back on rollers to see what raceland has done to power/torque
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Old 14-06-2006, 06:51 PM   #30
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You may need a tweak to the map blondy, does it feel any better?
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Old 15-06-2006, 07:12 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy309
Will that be definitive? I don't think the DCOE TB set up dave has is ideal tbh, not meaning to be rude or anything!
Yer alright Sandy ,I'm thick skin'd ! ,I've got nothing against anybody fitting T/b's but the std inlet seems to work quite well. As you have said ,maybe the dcoe type set-up is not the best ones so identifing the best type to go for would maybe help stop people buying the wrong ones and being dissapointed with the results ?
btw,whats the best way to set up the "throttle pump effect" with DTA ?
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Old 15-06-2006, 07:21 AM   #32
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anglias are go

anglias are go!!!!!
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Old 15-06-2006, 07:38 AM   #33
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My Standard 8v lump made 105hp (fly) on the rollers befre bodies, then 127 (fly) / 107 wheels after fitting 38mm bodies (cbr600). impresively it also made 138.8 ftlb's of torque @ 4450rpm which is a HUGE increase, altho i've taken it with a pinch of salt.
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Old 15-06-2006, 08:07 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benji
My Standard 8v lump made 105hp (fly) on the rollers befre bodies, then 127 (fly) / 107 wheels after fitting 38mm bodies (cbr600). impresively it also made 138.8 ftlb's of torque @ 4450rpm which is a HUGE increase, altho i've taken it with a pinch of salt.

I'm not trying to have a dig or start a debate but I think your right to "take it with a pinch of salt" that sort of torque figures equate to around 85+lbs/ft per ltr which is very high for an 8v given the state of tune. Have a look on Puma Racings web site for more info .
I've fitted the same bodies onto my 1360 along with a head and cam and Ive got 99/100 lbs/ft torque which is around 73lbs/ft per ltr, your engine is 17.5% bigger but your quoting nearly 40% more torque. Again ,I'm not having a go ,only wanting people to try and understand/look at the figures ,,,,, keep on tuning !
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Old 15-06-2006, 04:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry.M
[/B]
I'm not trying to have a dig or start a debate but I think your right to "take it with a pinch of salt" that sort of torque figures equate to around 85+lbs/ft per ltr which is very high for an 8v given the state of tune. Have a look on Puma Racings web site for more info .
I've fitted the same bodies onto my 1360 along with a head and cam and Ive got 99/100 lbs/ft torque which is around 73lbs/ft per ltr, your engine is 17.5% bigger but your quoting nearly 40% more torque. Again ,I'm not having a go ,only wanting people to try and understand/look at the figures ,,,,, keep on tuning !
i agree with you, just suprised at the increase. (it was rollered @ wayne scofields not really a inexperienced user).

When i find the graphs i'll post em up, only other mod is a 4-1 s/s exhaust manny
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Old 15-06-2006, 06:08 PM   #36
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Graphs ahoy!!!

Wife's car} Square line = R/L manifold, Mangex inc decat & green cold air ind kit (2 prong head engine)

My car} Round line = R/L manifold, skimmed head, Pugsport exhaust, 708 Cat cams & Jenvey DCOE style TB's

POWER

TORQUE


Blondpoxy's car} Triangle line = GMC 4-1, Pugsport, 708 Cat cams, std injection, 4 bar FPR, Ebay 7800rpm chip & Dastek.

POWER


TORQUE
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Old 15-06-2006, 06:45 PM   #37
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I take it the dips in poxys curve is some sort of harmonic waves/cross scavenging on inlet cause by being on standard plenum?

Interesting though that there is so much torque on the standard inlet compared to the Jenveys (at least low down).

Would be very interesting to see what a nice long inlet tract on say for arguements sake the 45/42mm tapered style individual throttle bodies.

I'd love to see some results on that setup In fact I'd like to sit down with Sandy over a pint and talk about possibilities for my next engine (not in a gay way!)
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Old 15-06-2006, 06:49 PM   #38
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My engine used to do that with the GMC fitted too so it's not the inlet.

Round= R/L without remapping after fitting.
Square= GMC, mapped with GMC fitted.

power


torque
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Old 15-06-2006, 07:29 PM   #39
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im wanting

im going back on the rollers with my new raceland 4-2-1 and Dave p will kindly post the graphs.
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Old 20-06-2006, 05:57 PM   #40
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if you upgrade your cam (pulls) do you have to upgrade the shafts aswel? i know that with both you will get a better performace? just was wondering?
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Old 21-06-2006, 08:54 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Davis
if you upgrade your cam (pulls) do you have to upgrade the shafts aswel? i know that with both you will get a better performace? just was wondering?
Eh?
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Old 21-06-2006, 12:16 PM   #42
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I think Ross means is it worth investing in vernier pulleys for the camshafts. Either that or he is under the inpression that you buy the cams and/or the shafts!?
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Old 21-06-2006, 12:20 PM   #43
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Camshaft are shafts.

Verniers are not needed really as the std pulley's are adjustable.
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Old 21-06-2006, 12:23 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave P
Camshaft are shafts.


yeah thats why i hope he's asking about verniers!
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Old 21-06-2006, 12:32 PM   #45
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Whats the diference between a standard adjustable pully and a vernier? appart from verniers coming in pretty colours?
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Old 21-06-2006, 12:47 PM   #46
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verniers have little markings on them with degree's on?! and theyre probably a tiny bit lighter.
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Old 21-06-2006, 02:31 PM   #47
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hey


just wonderign what would suzuki gsxr 600 tbs with 38mm centres give hp wise to a s1 rally engine stock
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Old 21-06-2006, 02:44 PM   #48
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theres no definate set gains as the inlet manifold you'll have to make plays a bit part in the hp gain. benji got 20hp on a 1.6 8v though.
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Old 22-06-2006, 07:07 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad4m
hey


just wonderign what would suzuki gsxr 600 tbs with 38mm centres give hp wise to a s1 rally engine stock
I only got 2-3 bhp at peak over the stock 1.3 alloy inlet,but from 3k-7.5k gained good power
and torque on my 1360cc. As Sandy309 has always gone on about ,You have to play about with ind length to get the most gains and be prepared to cut your bulkhead for the best results
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Old 22-06-2006, 08:36 AM   #50
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hey

any one got any more info on doing this and the best results they have got
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